Water pump problem

[charlielucky]

Hi, I did a search and found a thread about difficulty in removing the water pump. My 1981 car was running beautifully after 25 years in the garage but then I realised that I've been a total novice in not checking the heating system works. The long and the short of it is the valve and heater core are completely rotten so I spent Sunday pulling them out of the car. I tried flushing the engine through with a hose pipe and realised just how gunged up the cooling system is. So now I have taken out the radiator and dropped it off to be cleaned and checked. The water pump looks like it has never been replaced so I decided to go the whole hog and replace it. The first two bolts came off easily but then the third nearest the lower pulley just snapped off about 3mm into the hole. The 4th bolt is a mystery to me because there is a metal cover so I can't get at it. In the 2012 post it talked about removing the lover pulley to get at this bolt. Is that my only option? I have a new timing belt kit on order so I might as well change that out at the same time. How can I get the broken bolt out? Can I use a punch and break the water pump around the bolt?

[Nut124]

Usually, the water pump is done when replacing the timing belt.

If yours has the sheet metal covers down by the crank, then the crank pulley will need to come off to remove the sheet metal. I'd consider not reinstalling it. There might be a way to remove the sheet metal by cutting, destroying it, not sure. Crank pulley nut is on tight. Need a good impact wrench of a very long, strong breaker bar.

The snapped bolt should not keep the pump from coming out once the rest of the bolts are out.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Nut has it right. If your Spider 2000 has the rear sheet metal covers for the timing belt, it can be very difficult to remove the water pump with these shields in place. Last summer, I helped a friend with a spider with the same problem, and we were able to remove the sheet metal without removing the crankshaft pulley. But, it was very, very difficult and involved destroying the sheet metal shield with tin snips and removing it one fragment at a time. I wouldn't recommend this unless you are desperate.

The crank pulley usually comes off with a long breaker bar, or better yet, an air impact wrench. Make sure you have exactly the right size socket so you don't round off the nut. If you use a breaker bar, put the car in 4th gear and have an assistant stand on the brakes while you try to loosen the nut. It comes off in the normal direction, counterclockwise. If the nut is really tight, the clutch can start to slip, and if that happens, the only option is an impact wrench.

Quite frankly, the whole timing belt cover design is a low point for the Fiat spiders. That's why so many people just get rid of the covers. I have yet to hear of any instance of belt damage due to something kicked up from the roadway. I suppose it could happen, but it is very unlikely.

As for removing the water pump with a snapped off bolt or two? I have once or twice in the past had to use a cutoff wheel to cut the water pump into pieces so it could be removed. You're going to replace the pump anyway, but just be careful not to damage the front face of the block.

-Bryan

[charlielucky]

Thank you for the expert advice. I'll try and get the bottom pulley off this weekend. In 2010 I asked a local garage to replace the distribution timing belt. Unfortunately they discovered many other problems so the car hasn't been driven since. The belt looks in very good condition but I imagine having sat for 13 years I should replace it along with the pump and the tensioner wheel. I'll let you know how I get on.

[charlielucky]

Hi again, Stupid question but can anyone tell me the correct socket size for the bolt on the crankcase pulley? Does it undo anticlockwise? What is the best way to block the pulley from turning? I'm asking because a friend is coming over with a breaker bar and sockets to try and get the pulley off.

Thank you

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Hi Charlie, the correct size for an '81 spider crankshaft pulley nut is 38mm, although 1.5 inches also works just fine. The nut comes off anti-clockwise (the normal direction). However, if by chance your engine has been replaced with a later version (like 1983 or later), the nut for that is actually a bolt and it comes off in the reverse direction. But, the bolt has a smaller head size. So, if your nut is indeed 38mm (1.5"), then you have the original setup.

The easiest way to prevent the engine from turning is to put the transmission in 4th gear and have an assistant stand on the brakes while you try to loosen the nut. People have also used a chain wrench around the groove for the alternator / water pump belt. Some people put a pipe on the end of that chain wrench and brace it against the ground to keep the wrench from turning. These days, I mostly use an impact wrench which is the easiest, but it's rather tricky as you have to remove the radiator and grill, raise the engine up a couple inches and go through the front grill opening with a long extension. Or pull the engine out which is much more work...

Good luck with it.

-Bryan

[charlielucky]

Hello again, I have managed to remove the pulley and and the metal cover. Eventually I got the water pump off the car by cutting around the broken bolt area. So now I have the broken bottom bolt to remove. I've been soaking it with WD40 for about a week and tried a couple of times to remove it with a mole grip. It just won't budge and I'm starting to chew up the thread. On some restoration sites I've seen people using a special tool that heats the bolt red hot so it can be removed. I'm getting pretty desperate so can anyone give me a suggestion on how to get this bolt out?

Thank you
Charles

[SpiderGuy]

In the Machine Shop I worked at we used several ways to deal with stuck or broken off bolts. Heat it with whatever type of torch you have either a Butane or Propane or an Oxy Acetylene torch. Hot to the point it just starts turning red. Immediately melt parafin wax on it and the wax will suck right into the threads between the bolt and the block. I have seen many bolts that almost become finger tight at that point, all resistance is gone. WAX MAGIC !!
Then while it's still hot grab it real tightly with a vice grip pliers and try to back it out.

If the hot wax trick doesn't work the first time (but it usually works like magic) drill a hole straight thru the bolt all the way thru which releases it's expansive force and try it again. Be careful the drill bit goes thru the center so it doesn't damage the threads in the block

In a case when the broken bolt threads are long enough you can DOUBLE NUT it and use a wrench or socket to back it out. Or weld a nut to the end of the bolt. If the shaft is too short for 2 nuts but long enough for only ONE nut then you can WELD the One nut to the bolt.

If the bolt is broken off flush with the surface you obviously can't grab it with anything so you will have to drill a hole in it and use a tool called an easy out

Any wax like these work fine or even a Crayon



This is the tool we call an Easy Out or a Broken Screw extractor..they come in different sizes for different size bolts, they turn in with left hand twist and get tighter the farther they go in because they are tapered thread. The Left turning rotation gets tighter and tighter until the broken bolt finally gives up and turns out. The Easy Out on the right Came with a drill bit of the right size for that size Bit


Broken bolt stub with the drill hole will be like these


And here are some Extremely tightly Rusted / Broken off Head bolt Studs I had to weld Nuts onto and use a BIG Impact Wrench to get them out. The one shows a doubled up Nut These came out of a 1943 Flat Head.
The 4 Nuts on the left snapped off so I just had to weld new ones on and try again..finally got em all out


These 4 Head Bolt Studs were Rusted Tight into the Block and they were a real Bear to get out.
The Head would NOT lift up off of the Studs because they were Rust Welded together


This one I had to weld the DOUBLE NUTS onto it


This was the last one that finally came out

[18Fiatsandcounting]

I agree with SpiderGuy, and it's not an easy job. I've had to drill out broken off water pump bolts, but it is very tricky to drill straight down the center without damaging the threads in the block. Easier when the engine is out of the car, but let's hope it doesn't come to that.

-Bryan

[SpiderGuy]

It's a Labor of Love working on old cars and can be frustrating at times, but such a feeling of success when it all comes together. One step at a time. New Tools, New Skills, New Challenges. Parts Fixed, Engines working and brought back to life that had almost been turned into scrap if we didn't fix em.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

What engine is that, SpiderGuy? And the chassis is a ??? Jeep of some sort?

-Bryan

[charlielucky]

Thank you so much for such a complete answer to my predicament. Relieved to hear I am not the only one who has had to deal with this problem. I was reluctant to use a blow torch on the bolt in case I cause some kind of damage or set fire to the engine! I think I will try and put some metal plates in place to protect the drive belt etc. and then try your wax technique. Let you know how I get on over the weekend. Love the jeep. I have a Renault Estafette from 1974 that needs restoring. My next project.

[SpiderGuy]

What engine is that, SpiderGuy? And the chassis is a ??? Jeep of some sort?

-Bryan

Bryan, The Engine is the original 134cu. inch Ford Flat Head they were called "The Go Devil"

It's a 1943 GPW Jeep made by Ford (hence the Ford Gray motor and Transmission) Ford made abut half of the Jeeps for WW2 and Willys made the other half and painted their Engines Green. I am only the 3rd civilian owner of this all numbers matching Treasure from history. There are very few numbers matching survivors because after the war most were taken apart into components then randomly resembled before being sold as Surplus. All of the Jeeps that went overseas stayed there and were sold or donated to locals. Lucky for me the Army never dissembled or rebuilt this one and it never left the Base, so no war damage like most suffered.

This Jeep was originally used at Camp Carson (now Called Fort Carson) right here in Colorado. A Rancher near Pueblo Co. bought it in 1946 after the war as Army Surplus for $49 but never licensed it, just used it on his ranch. When he passed on thru the Jeeper's Pearly Gates his Widow gave it to my friend Roy who kept it in a Barn for about 10 years before Roy finally sold it to me ( for a heck of a lot more than $49 ).

I spent about 6 months of research and good old fashioned hard work to completely disassemble every single part, strip, clean ,fix and restore it to what they call "Assembly Line Specs" just like it left the Ford Factory in 1943. No body other than me touched any part, I did the Machine Work on the Engine at the Ehnes Rink Machine Shop where I recently retired from. My friend Lambert Rink is the Owner and still goes to work every day at 91yrs of age.

I know this isn't a War Jeep forum and didn't intend to hijack this thread about broken bolts (but the old Jeep did have lots of broken/stuck bolts so I guess its relevant) ..but too late now, so here's a couple more pics of the "WAR HORSE" (I have about 1800 pics )







The Browning .30 cal shown here is NOT a real gun it is a Resin and FiberGlass Prop Gun
















The Browning .50 cal shown here is NOT a real gun it is a Resin and FiberGlass Prop Gun

[SpiderGuy]

One Last Top Tip that really works on stuck fasteners is to apply a sudden "Snapping type Jolt force" rather than just a "steady" pulling force. Apply good strong steady Pressure then give it a sharp Yank or even smack the wrench or Bolt head with a hammer while applying pulling force. The sudden Sharp "Shock Force' helps to free the 2 stuck parts. Impact Wrenches are a good example they use strong turning force in conjunction with the Shocking Hammering Pulses

It has to do with the difference between Static Friction and Kinetic Friction. When 2 surfaces are stuck together that is Static (stationary) type Friction holding them together. When 2 surfaces are sliding past each other that is Kinetic (moving) type Friction. Once the Static friction snaps loose it takes way less force to keep the parts moving. Ouch that often results in our skinned knuckles if you'r not careful. So it's usually safer to PULL real hard rather than PUSH real hard when something snaps off or finally breaks loose.

At the Machine Shop I retired from we worked on some HUGE Diesel Engines with great big stuck bolts. Earth Mover type Big. Some Bolts torqued to 225 Ft Lbs then they Rusted and Crusted to EXSTRA STUCK. Sometime when they finally break free it sounds almost like a rifle shot loud

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Those are cool stories SpiderGuy, both about your Jeep as well as the technical aspects of fasteners. A great example of static versus sliding friction is when your car slides on wet pavement. Once the wheels break free, it's awfully hard to regain friction with the road.

-Bryan