Hot Relay

[Martyn]

I have been advised to get a Bosch FI Combo relay, which I am trying to source but no luck as yet. The car doesn't start by the way but when relay is bypassed it starts fine.

However, in the relay "box" I've noticed that another relay is very hot - it is marked as Sipea 0679. The car has been sitting idle for at least 2 hours and still hot. What does it do? Why is it hot? Is there an alternative relay for it?

Any help much appreciated.

[spider2081]

Could you post a photo of the hot relay so its position could be determined. If not could you do your best to describe the position of the relay on the panel with the relay on it.

Very often the dual relay itself is not the problem but he terminals in the connectors for the relay do not make good contact with the relay pins. Do you know which terminals or the color wires are being jumped to get the car to start??

[Martyn]

I have created a shared folder in Gphotos. Hope it works.

The first photo shows the Relay tray as it appears initially. There are three unattached relays: the FI double relay (back right), the hot one described earlier (front, black, marked Sipea), and another, small one, out of sight. The second photo shows the tray with attached relays. The third photo shows the back row of the tray with attached relays for clarity.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/esq1EjcrNe4fDEe47

[spider2081]

Thanks for the photos.
I have a diagram of the relays mounted to the plate but some of yours are floating (not mounted) so that is not helping me So I researched the Sipea 0679 part number. I believe it is a timer/relay that turns off the courtesy light after around 10 seconds from when the doors are closed. If you unplug the relay does the courtesy light stop working?

I don't think the timer is available anymore. There is a post in mirafiori.com by "lanciahf" dated July 12 regarding this device. I think you should join mirafiori site to access their library. There is also a great dual relay test procedure recently posted in their library. You need to join the site to access their library. It is free to belong.

[Martyn]

Thanks spider.

I will join the site. The courtesy lights have been removed from the doors by previous owner but odd that it gets very hot. I will remove and see whether anything changes.

You also asked previously about relay bypass. The mechanic who looked at it powered fuel pump directly from battery when I cranked engine. It started. I then was able to start it normally, without a direct power connection. But a week later, nada.

[spider2081]

Keep in mind hot wiring the fuel pump not only bypasses the dual relay but it also bypasses the connections to the dual relay. Often it is the female terminals in the plugs for the dual relay that fave lost their tension over time. Wiggling the wires in the connectors while holding the relay in your hand will often cause the relay to make an audible clicking sound. IF that is the case its usually the terminal in the connector needs to be replaced. The small terminals are more troublesome than the large terminals. A test in the car that can be made is: Ignition switch in the "start" position battery voltage should be measured on pin 86a of the relay connector. Ground should be present on pin 85. This ground passes through the ECU to a ground on the engine intake air plenum. The ground should be there as long as the ECU is plugged in. Again with the ignition switch in the "start" position fuel pump relay should engage and battery voltage should be measured at relay pin 88d.

I would not want you to purchase an expensive dual relay and find out it is not the problem.

[Martyn]

I will test at the weekend. Thanks again.

[Martyn]

Did the tests on the connectors with the wires in situ - nothing with either!

I will remove the wires and redo the tests directly. Hopefully that will then confirm the problem is wiring/connectors, but have to be sometime in the week now unfortunately. Fingers crossed it is just the connectors.

Interesting the other relay was red hot before all the testing. I think it probably is the courtesy lights as you suggest, so have removed it.

[spider2081]

there are a number of relays whose case and terminal configuration look similar but the part numbers are different and their function is different so they can not be swapped around. Also Bosch style cube relays are manufactured in two configurations, type A and type B. The types determine the positions of terminals 86 and 30. So swapping one type for the other simply can't work.

The Bosch 0679 relay is a timer circuit and I'm pretty sure its not installed in all 83-85 Spiders I don't know if it was an option or if it came with specific years or models.
I have opened a few dual relays in 2 of them the printed circuit land between connecting pins 86a to pin 86 was burnt open. Fairly easy fix, soldered a wire connecting the pins on the PC board.

Maybe you will be lucky too

Have a cool day
Dave

[Martyn]

Hi,

Had to go to the UK and the car is in Spain! Hence the delay in getting back. Finally found a wiring diagram for 83 to 85 models.

I took the wire going to 86a out of the connector and no voltage when the ignition turned on. This wire (red according to the wiring diagram but red/black in the car) goes directly to the ignition. Tomorrow (hopefully) I will check for the integrity of the wire. If that's OK then do I conclude it is the ignition switch?

[spider2081]

I took the wire going to 86a out of the connector and no voltage when the ignition turned on.

The wire diagram I have shows a red/black wire on terminal 86a.
Teerminal 86a has voltage on it from the ignition switch only when the ignition swittch is in the spring loaded "start" position. It will not have voltage on it in the on or "run" position.

[Martyn]

Okay. I only had key in run position. So will test when try to start. Thanks. I'll let you know.

[Martyn]

OK, tested 86a and live when ignition in start position.

Then I reconnected the relay and then tested 88d, which goes to fuel pump, and this is live when the ignition is in the start position.

I then checked for continuity of the wire going to the pump and all good, so I checked for power at the pump when the ignition is in the start position and again all good.

This suggests its the pump. But how did the mechanic get it started by bypassing the relay? He said there was no power at the pump, so he bypassed the relay and got it started and concluded either the wiring or relay. But I think he tested for power when the ignition was in the run position because he said I should hear it running initially for a second or two to pressurise the system.

Any suggestions????????

[spider2081]

But how did the mechanic get it started by bypassing the relay?

I would discount a test you did not make yourself. Reason being you don't know what the person did only what they told you.

The fuel pump needs both power onthe green/black wire and ground on the white/black wire.
When you measured voltage at the fuelpump did you have the meter leads connected to both fuel pump wires or did you use the cars chassis for the ground. Maybe the ground wire is not making a good connection in the trunk. Its usually nde at one of the driverside tail light mounting studs. Maybe check that it is a good connection.
Have you liked into the fuel tank and checked for rust? To do this remove the fuel sender and look in with a flash light. If rusty rust particales may be jamming the fuel pump impeller. Many people install a filter before the pump. Other car manufacturers used an input filter with the Bosch fuel pump. I think its a WIX 3248 filter

[Martyn]

The fuel tank is relatively new (~ 3 years) and the prefilter was changed at the same time. So rust shouldn't be an issue.

I disconnected ground wire and connected a wire from -ve terminal to battery -ve directly. Still no start.

I guess the next step is to remove the pump and test it, but it is relatively new and did work when the relay was bypassed by the mechanic.