Steering idler options

[Kiwispider]

Restoring my '79, I've opened the steering idler to give it a clean, found a bit of gunge mixed with fluid in the top cylinder, maybe 3/4 full of fluid in the bottom cylinder, bearing valves all in good working order. Had not seen any obvious leaks, but hadn't been looking for any either.

The Idler is currently out of the car, but prior to disassembly, with the wheels off the ground, it was relatively easy to grab a front wheel and rotate the steering from lock to lock. There was a little bit of steering play when driving, but just what I took to be normal for the age/type, about 1'' rotation of the steering wheel. This could be a direct result of the idler not being completely full, although I have not yet checked the steering box.

I refilled the idler with 80W-90 gear oil in line with what I've read on the forum, and what also seems like common sense:- fill the bottom cylinder completely, fill the top cylinder through the filler hole with the idler at the same angle as if mounted in the car. This made it impossible to rotate the arm unless I pinned the idler body to the bench by leaning on it with one hand, while leaning on the arm with the other - I got it to move but was worried what pressure it might be exerting on the innards, so only did it once.

I then removed some fluid back to how it was when I opened it, this made it easier to rotate (could do it without using my body weight) but had a very slight 'squelch' in the middle of the rotation, and oil was leaking out of the bottom seal; not between the spindle and the seal, but between the seal and the idler body. Only leaks after/during rotation, if the idler is 'idle' it doesn't leak.

So what to do? These are my questions for the brains trust...

1. If the idler is operating correctly should it take that much force to turn it? Or is the partly filled version more like what to expect.
2. Has the Honda replacement seal option stood the test of time for those who have done it? Would you expect the friction fitted seal to withstand what seems like a lot pressure when the fluid levels are to spec?
3. Are the bearing type idlers available from the vendors also a damper, which is what I understand is the point of the fluid idler?
4. If the bearing idlers have reduced/limited damping, would it not be possible to achieve a similar result by using the fluid idler but only partly filled with grease, or even virtually empty (i.e. enough fluid to lubricate it but building very little pressure so as not to leak)?
5. Or use a less viscous fluid (brake fluid maybe?) to make it easier to pass through the ball valves (but also easier to leak past the seal??)

Any options and opinions gratefully received.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Trevor, a few thoughts based on my experience (two idlers rebuilt):

- It sounds like you had too much oil the first time around. From what I recall, when my idlers were on the bench and clamped in a vice, you could rotate the arm by hand. There was some resistance when you tried to move the arm quickly, but it was much less when you moved the arm slowly. This is how I understand the idler to work: It resists the sharp jolts that you might see from a pothole or the like, but allows the wheels to slowly turn through the driver's action.

- I have heard that straight 90 weight oil is better in terms of minimizing leaks. 80W-90 oil is much less viscous, and it can leak over time. I would not put grease or brake fluid or anything else in your idler. Just 90 weight oil.

- I have never bought an aftermarket "bearing" type idler/damper, but my understanding is that they are a good replacement for the original fluid idlers. Make sure you get one that has the right splines for the idler arm you are using, or you'll need to find a replacement arm as well.

- I did buy one of those Honda seals to use as a backup, but the leakage from my two idlers ('69 and '71 spiders) is pretty minimal, like a drop every few months. I can live with that for now but may eventually try the Honda seal trick.

-Bryan

[Kiwispider]

Thanks Bryan, my leak is a drop every few times I move the arm, so definitely need to find a fix.

I have tracked down some SAE90 gear oil but it is non EP and is promoted for use in vintage cars, at what point does some pressure become Extreme Pressure? Does it matter in this situation? So much to learn!

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Non-EP oil will be fine for the idler box. There are only two places in the car where EP oil is necessary: the differential, and the steering box, due to the nature of the gears in those. Since the idler box doesn't have gears in it, the oil's only function is to be viscous to provide the damping effect, and that doesn't require that it be EP.

EP is not used in the transmission due to the brass synchro rings, which don't react well with the additives used in EP oils. So, it uses non-EP oil.

-Bryan

[Kiwispider]

Thanks Bryan, another pearl of wisdom

[redcars]

My fix for a leaking idler box is to replace the seal with a lip seal. Someone has did a good write up on here so a search should find it. I don't know if I can find the seal numbers that I used. I believe that the write up has them. Replacing the seals requires machining so it may not be for everyone.

[Kiwispider]

Thanks Redcars, I have found some good threads here about replacing the seal, including the part number for a Honda seal, which appears to be readily available and is cheap. But I don't have a puller to get the arm off, and I'd have to track down a workshop to do the machining. I'm guessing that will still be better than buying a new idler from the US, with exchange rates, freight and taxes what they are.

When they leak, is it typically between the seal and the shaft, or the seal and the idler body? Does the lip seal mean it has a lip on the outside against the idler body, or against the shaft?

[redcars]

They leak between the seal and the shaft. You may try transmission stop leak which has a additive that swells seals. A lip seal has a spring loaded lip against the shaft. I had to build a custom support to enable me to press off the arm `in an hydraulic press, they are on there pretty good.

[rburgess76]

I just finished disassembling my hydraulic idler. Fluid level was down a few cc's but steering was notchy - most of which was due to galling of the steering box input shaft end race. The idler itself wasn't leaking until I turned it a few times and it seemed to grind a bit. The washer had rusted to the shaft and the seal was stuck to the washer so it spun against the housing, where it leaked. Obviously it wasn't leaking enough via the shaft to prevent the rust.

Soaked the idler arm in PB Blaster for a few days, light taps and a small bearing puller and it almost slid off. To remove the washer/seal I drilled a piece of angle iron to mount the idler in a drill press and "milled" it with a hole saw without the pilot bit. Slowest speed and only enough force to just hear it begin to cut. Most difficult part is the approach - an ultra-slow, steady hand on the tiller. I just cut till the washer could be popped out - about 15 minutes for a nice clean cut.

[TX82FIAT]

I have the AR after market idler with the bearings for about 8 years now. No issues. Easy install. Less space. Highly recommend.

[Kiwispider]

Thanks for all your input. I've tried a fix using a semi-fluid oil - has a consistency similar to hand sanitizing gel - which is solid enough that it hasn't leaked after a dozen or so bench-test movements, but is fluid enough to squeeze past the internal ball bearings. The idler is back in the car now but the car is still in the air, so will see how well it works when the rubber hits the road.

[3505jd]

What is the torque spec for the steering idler box arm?