Hypothetical question

[mdrburchette]

I'm not saying this happened but I just want opinions.
Let's say there was a member judged car show where the cars were grouped in a class by year model, and let's say there was one class where there were several beautiful restorations to vote on. Sooo, while checking out the cars, you notice that the VIN #s show a few of the cars should have been in a different class but were misrepresented because they were restored to look like the class they were in....and they took top awards. What would you do or how would you feel?

[pope]

I would sell your car and buy a late model Spider!


It sucks. I think your a little smarter now and would make sure that the judges are aware of this fact in the future. I cant see anything happening now. We know your the winner!

[So Cal Mark]

You could sue the promotors for fraud or order a hit on the offending owners

[mdrburchette]

Pope, I went with the belief my car wouldn't win anything which was great by me. It's not unusual to be passed by if your car has won an award several times. In fact I was considering entering it as a display to let others have a chance to get an award. I was more concerned about the fellas that had true early models that had worked hard to make their cars presentable. There was an original 72 that made my heart beat faster and it didn't even get a second thought. The cars I was referring to were professional restorations and I doubt even the owners knew they weren't what they were professed to be.

[frankbmg]

The one car that should have at least been mentioned was the original abarth spyder. The person who owned was very disappointed it wasn't.

[mdrburchette]

The one car that should have at least been mentioned was the original abarth spyder. The person who owned was very disappointed it wasn't.

Amen to that! It was an exquisite machine and I'm still kicking myself for having my camera break before I could take pics of it.

[racydave]

I dont know Denise. I was not in attendance. Thats one reason I dont enter mine for judging, and have not voted. It should be up to the organizers to run a clean show. The whole thing needs to be re-vamped from head to toe. Im not trashin the club ( like on that other forum) I have every faith in our board members to bring the club up to modern standards, and will do anything possible to help! I just want to be posative, and constructive. Im happy that you, Mike and Lee have been added, and I feel ( since we talk ), I have a voice. Anyway, anytime there is a popular vote by the members, It wont be fair. Certain Canadians will vote for other Canadians, people vote for friends... I guess I just need to get more involved, I have alot of ideas and questions. PS D Im sure if you put on the show, itd be kickass!

[mdrburchette]

Dave, I've been scouting hotel accomodations in my area and have a few that promise to offer what we need at a good price. I think it would be fun since we've got great mountain roads.
As far as the club is concerned, it would be nice to take a poll of exactly what the majority of the people expect or look forward to. I was a bit disappointed that I couldn't spend a lot of time checking out the cars. This may have been due to the volume of participants we had for the 25th Anniversary, but I've heard other comments on different things that may need to be addressed. It sure would be nice to hear from all the members.

[mbouse]

i have never entered to be judged, never expect to win anything.

however, i someday hope to be in a position to have a different light on that topic. at that time, i will know all the hard work i put into my restoration. if i find that "cheating" or misrepresentation had occurred in ANY class, i would be plenty peeved.

the promotors and organizers of this hypothetical show should be given proof that the misrepresentation occurred (deliberate or not). the car that won dishonestly should be stripped of the awards.

even if the show was done for fun, like the recent FFO.

FFO is nothing more than a popularity contest. hundreds of unskilled and untrained folks marking a ballot is not a true contest. these people, for the most part, could care less if the VIN matches the class the car was entered into. they are voting on glitz and glamour, not technical perfection.

be advised of the rules on judging before you go thru the trouble of entering the party. ask the promotors what those rules are before you spend the time preparing your car for the show.

[jprisbe]

Hypothetical solution...

Why do we have to have judging at all?

Why not just get together, socialize and admire each others cars???

[bradartigue]

What would you do or how would you feel?

Well you have a couple of issues - one is minor, the other is not. The minor issue is that FIAT VINs are pretty loosely applied. My 1970 - a well documented 1970 - built in 1969 has VIN that FIAT documented as a 1971. Now that's impossible but anomalies exist even in non-transition years. I've seen 78's with 79 VINs, etc. So if a restoration was, say, of a 1972 with a 71 VIN that's not something to tizzy about.

I seriously doubt the above scenario would cause anyone heartburn.

The other issue is how these cars are registered at FFO in the first place. People (Judges especially) should know to look at the body stamp numbers. It should be the same in three places - on the body, on the plate in the engine bay, and on the dashboard. If they still have the door jamb plate it should be there as well. A BS is a BS, a CS is a CS, a DS0 is a DS0, etc. If a guy removes his bumpers and paints his hood black it is not a CSA.

Now if someone lacks the body stamp - especially the one in the hood - they can't register in any class but modified. If they claim the car is something it isn't then they can't register. Why does your car say AS when it is a BS body? Or why did you register as a CSA when this is a CS with the hood painted black?

The final issue is if someone accepts an award knowing the car is a fraud then shame on them. Next year put a rubber chicken in their car and give two trophies - one for not being a jerk - to the runner up.

If you ever wonder why I avoid car show competitions this is one of the reasons. Only at a car show can a dead stock, loved, and cared for original car be beaten out by one with racing stripes, Miata seats, and a Z28 motor.

[mdrburchette]

Jon, you're way would probably be best. Not only would it eliminate these concerns but it would free us up to actually enjoy each others cars.
Brad, they were CS bodies being shown as AS and BS bodies. Heck, they could've won in the appropriate class since they were very nicely done.

[So Cal Mark]

so the hypothetical question isn't so hypothetical. Can we hear more details? This is starting to sound like a Brit car forum with discussions of which car is more true to original.
I'll agree that any time you enter a competition, you need to find out the judging criteria. And since attendee voting is just a popularity contest, the shiniest car will probably win.
In the end, prepare your car to suit yourself and enjoy any accolades you happen to accumulate. Rarely does anyone comment to me about my Spider, but I'm quite happy with it.

[bradartigue]

Brad, they were CS bodies being shown as AS and BS bodies. Heck, they could've won in the appropriate class since they were very nicely done.

I think it falls into the pathetic loser category. Let's see, you restored a FIAT to resemble an earlier FIAT and you want to take credit for that?

Judges should check for authenticity and, if I read your post correctly, this was not done. Makes me question the judging criteria if the very basis of the vehicle isn't even checked.

[pope]

But in reality...what is the difference between Spiders? Very minor in my opinion. The 8 body panels are almost exactly the same from 1967 to 1985. A door handle change and a hood bump? Blame the bumpers on the US Government. Just the fact that you can change a few parts and it look exactly like a previous year should tell you this. If you have to look at the vin # to tell them apart...
We could have competitions based on wheel rim size. A 13" class and a 14" class.

Its not like Mustangs or Camaro or Firebirds that changed dramatically every couple of years!


How about you having to produce the cars wiring diagram to get into that years competition, LOL.

Can't we all just get along...Your all winners in my book. Take a ribbon and pass the rest down.