1980 FI - Best Bang for the buck on performance?

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Daniel

Re: 1980 FI - Best Bang for the buck on performance?

Post by Daniel »

Daniel,

Would you then say that increasing intake and exhaust valve diameter and increasing compression by going to 4mm domed piston while using the stock cams is not going to gain me much?

Trying to understand........
When building an engine of any type balance between intake cams compression and exhaust are key
if you go to big on one side and not the other the power band may suffer greatly . So lets say you
wanted 3 engines all 124 spider 2000 cc but each to have a different amount of power and power band
we will start with the lowest and work our way up .

Engine 1
Slightly Modified over stock
Port Head, Exhaust manifold and intake
Drill Holes in Air Box ( as Casaba suggested )
Maybe use a 1800 Head to increase CR (almost 1 point to around 9 to 1 with stock pistons )
replace mufflers
Change Coil, Wires and Plugs
If you can find a K&N Air Filter great if not no biggy not much of a improvement in stock air filter box
Tune everything just right and as wikkid suggested go through what you have like fuel injectors etc
and clean check test what you have .
Power maybe 115 to 120 HP Power band good to 6k RPM Cost depends on how much you can do yourself
i would say lowest $1200 to about $2500 .

Engine 2 Mild Modified Build
Port Head Intake and exhaust
Replace ECU with Mega which allows you to remove the air flow meter (the bottle neck of the system flow wise)
Drill Holes in Air Box ( as Casaba suggested )
Maybe use a 1800 Head to increase CR (almost 1 point to around 9 to 1 with stock pistons )
replace mufflers
Change Coil, Wires and Plugs
Replace Cam or Cam Shafts for a Mid Power band boost just Intake is Needed something close to the 40/80
I wouldn't use the 40/80's on the market carefully choose a regrind .
2 Inch Exhaust from manifold or header back
If you can find a K&N Air Filter great if not no biggy not much of a improvement in stock air filter box
Tune everything just right and as wikkid suggested go through what you have like fuel injectors etc
and clean check test what you have .
Power some where with in 120 to 145 HP depends on how well you choose your work and parts power band
2k to 7000 RPM Cost once again up to you how much you can do yourself $2000 to $4500 .

Engine 3
2L Head Port and polish Large Valve Larger Cams ( you'll need after market valve springs with lift over 9.8 mm )
Megasquirt ECU Replace stock air filter box with performance air filter round type
Change Coil, Wires and Plugs
4 mm Dome Pistons 85 mm over size
Header and 2 to 2 1/4 inch pipping back
Injectors will need to be replaced with the next size or 2 up
Balance engine parts since engine is out might as well lighten flywheel 5lb to 7 lbs can come off
increase Oil Pump Pressure can be done by replacing spring inside oil pump to a stiffer spring
Tune Engine Adjust Cam Timing 3 Deg advance on Intake 1 Deg retard on Exhaust
Power some where between 150 to 175 HP Power Band 2500 to 7500 Cost $3500 to $7000

Yet we haven't touched full race so thats far more extreme
Does this help ?
Last edited by Daniel on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
CLudwig

Re: 1980 FI - Best Bang for the buck on performance?

Post by CLudwig »

wikkid wrote:It's worth noting that these cars have their limits. I mean, I won't get very far tweaking my old Buell motorcycles to try and make them perform like a new Yamaha Superbike racer. It's the same with your wonderful car from the early 1980's. Another way to put it is to enjoy the car for what it can do, and don't lament what it cannot perform.

So before putting money into new parts, be sure the existing ones are really set up and operating well. Do a fuel injection system overhaul, checking for air leaks, cleaning and adjusting your aux. air valve, cleaning up the electrical connections, getting your injectors refurb'ed and calibrated, adjusting valves properly, checking your ignition timing and maybe advancing it slightly. Be sure your plugs are clean and properly gapped, and/or new. Wires, too. Be sure your Air flow meter is working well, and your air filter is new.

Stuff like the above is free if you do it yourself, or really inexpensive. After that, get rid of weight: ditch the A/C system if you don't need it; go bumperless - both those changes will lighten the car a lot.

The other aspect of the riding experience is the suspension, and unless you only ride in straight lines, you will get more joy out of riding a stock Spider with a better suspension setup than a hot-rodded Spider with stock suspension (just my opinion - YMMV).

In short, get the exhaust note and flow you desire - that is part of your enjoyment. Do a good, deep checkup and tuning of your engine as it is, to make it perform the best it can. Possibly lighten the car's weight. Get good tires and look into suspension upgrades for better handling in corners. Then use some of your unused budget to book some track time and some track instruction, to take fullest advantage of the car.

Since I seem to be getting in over my head anyways.. I'm take your advice; thanks for that. Very well said by the way; you're 100% correct. I would still like to add more power, low end torque especially, but doing everything you mentioned above is probably my best bet on my limited budget and limited skill level.
CLudwig

Re: 1980 FI - Best Bang for the buck on performance?

Post by CLudwig »

Daniel, great post, I think I'll hold off and save this for "Phase2" when I have more cash, but I'm saving your guide here; very helpful thanks!
Daniel

Re: 1980 FI - Best Bang for the buck on performance?

Post by Daniel »

anytime that is what this forum is for I'm glad you found fs.com keep us posted we like lots of photos too :D
vandor
Posts: 3996
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 1:23 pm
Your car is a: 1971 124 Spider
Location: Texas, USA

Re: 1980 FI - Best Bang for the buck on performance?

Post by vandor »

Divers wrote:Can you explain the drilling og the airbox?
The stock FI Spider's air inlet draws warm air that has passed through the radiator. The inlet is also too restrictive.
To remedy both of these problems, large (~1.5" diameter) holes are drilled on the passenger side of the airbox. Then holes are drilled in the inner fender to line up with the holes in the airbox. Ideally there would be some 'ducting' between the two.

Another way of doing it is to install a cone filter directly on the AFM, and fabricate a surround to keep the hot engine bay air away. Then holes could be drilled either to the grille area or in the inner fender to let outside air in.

Tests on other cars have shown that a stock type air filter fed with outside air will make more power than a free-flow filter breathing engine bay air.
Csaba
'71 124 Spider, much modified
'17 124 Abarth, silver
http://italiancarclub.com/csaba/
Co-owner of the best dang Fiat parts place in town
vandor
Posts: 3996
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 1:23 pm
Your car is a: 1971 124 Spider
Location: Texas, USA

Re: 1980 FI - Best Bang for the buck on performance?

Post by vandor »

So Cal Mark wrote:unless you upgrade to a programmable efi system, stay away from a 40/80 cam. You'll be really unhappy with how poorly then engine runs at low and midrange rpm.
I respectfully disagree. For 5 years I drove my Bosch FI Spider with a pair of 40/80-80/40 cams. The car also had 9.8:1 CR and a free-flow airbox. It ran great, as smooth as any stock FI, and with very strong mid-range torque. I could also drive in 5th gear at 1500 rpm.
I wonder if the difference is in the quality of the 40/80 cams sold today. I bought my cams ~14 years ago, and they were Italian made.
Csaba
'71 124 Spider, much modified
'17 124 Abarth, silver
http://italiancarclub.com/csaba/
Co-owner of the best dang Fiat parts place in town
User avatar
Razooli
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 5:57 am
Your car is a: 1982 Fiat Spider 2000
Location: Newport Beach, CA

Re: 1980 FI - Best Bang for the buck on performance?

Post by Razooli »

vandor wrote:The stock FI Spider's air inlet draws warm air that has passed through the radiator. The inlet is also too restrictive.
To remedy both of these problems, large (~1.5" diameter) holes are drilled on the passenger side of the airbox. Then holes are drilled in the inner fender to line up with the holes in the airbox. Ideally there would be some 'ducting' between the two.
Since I live in CA, I have to have the stock air box on to get smogged. Took off the cone filter setup and put on the stock box and noticed that the slight hesitation I had was gone, idle was smooth and the car was just plain more drivable. I've left it that way since summer. Read about drilling holes, so I got out my 1.5" holesaw and went to town. However, since my car had AC (removed) I had two nice holes in the radiator panel so I cut the 2 holes in the front end and plugged the stock intake. A short ride last night didn't show up any untoward effects, but since the temp was in the 40s and the car didn't heat up all the way, not a real test. I might enlarge the 2 holes into one large one and put on some kind of insulating duct/box.
We'll see.
Lynn Shuler
1982 Spider 2000
Remember, this hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need therapy.
So Cal Mark

Re: 1980 FI - Best Bang for the buck on performance?

Post by So Cal Mark »

Csaba, the age of the cams has nothing to do with it. You had 9.8 compression, far more than stock. You of all people should be aware that higher compression is one of several items that make a 40/80 cam acceptable for the street
Divers

Re: 1980 FI - Best Bang for the buck on performance?

Post by Divers »

Lynn,

Got any pics? I removed the a/c in my car also so I might steal your way.

Robert
Fiatmonkey

Re: 1980 FI - Best Bang for the buck on performance?

Post by Fiatmonkey »

This is a lot to do about nothing and no one is pointing him to where he wanted. Sir, everything you asked for is available from most vendors. Except the Exhaust and the Programmable EFI. The Exhaust can be gotten from Vick Autosports or Mark Allisons the man difference that I saw between the two is Mark's is 4-1 and Vick's is 4-2-1. Both offer 2.25" exhaust to the tip. That final part mentioned that everyone except Daniel is ignoring is the Megasquirt ECU system which once again can be gotten from a vendor and appears ready for your can and in your price range. Vick Autosports has that kit for $1950 on their website.

I hope this now gives you an idea of where to look. I simply look at all the vendors Performance parts all the time as I like to see what new is going on.

Monkey
grittracing

Re: 1980 FI - Best Bang for the buck on performance?

Post by grittracing »

and loosing car wieght doesnt hurt either.Bumpers.back seat drivers ect ect :D !
Daniel

Re: 1980 FI - Best Bang for the buck on performance?

Post by Daniel »

There is a big difference between Marks header and Vicks also the price your going to pay for vicks FI systems
vs a do it your self Megasquirt kit which will save you about 1300 dollars in total . I would stay away from vicks
header the collector is the worst i've ever seen !

Daniel
CLudwig

Re: 1980 FI - Best Bang for the buck on performance?

Post by CLudwig »

Fiatmonkey - Thanks for the info
Have you or anyone else here tried the Megasquirt? I found this site: http://www.megasquirt.info/
But it gives me a headache just looking at it! Can someone without an engineering degree install and configure this?
Also where do I buy this?
User avatar
Razooli
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 5:57 am
Your car is a: 1982 Fiat Spider 2000
Location: Newport Beach, CA

Re: 1980 FI - Best Bang for the buck on performance?

Post by Razooli »

Divers wrote:Lynn,
Got any pics? I removed the a/c in my car also so I might steal your way.
Robert,
These are the holes where the freon lines went to and from the condenser that sat in front of the radiator. They are each about 1.5 inches in diameter, so they could probably stand to be opened up more with some ducting, as Csaba said.

When I had the cone filter on, I used an insulated aluminum cookie sheet to shield the filter from the engine compartment. Didn't look as elegant as the custom stainless steel heat shields, but my Harbor Freight multimeter has a thermocouple on it and there was a 45° difference on the 2 sides! Thought I might try to bend that into a "box" to isolate the holes from the radiator.
Anyway, something new to play with ... :D

Image
Air Box, on Flickr
Lynn Shuler
1982 Spider 2000
Remember, this hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need therapy.
Divers

Re: 1980 FI - Best Bang for the buck on performance?

Post by Divers »

Thanks!

For the original poster this looks like an easy and effective idea for performance boost.

Robert
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