Second Brown wire to ignition question

[DaveMarcotte]

Hey there,
Was going to do the brown wire fix but the ignition on my '77 doesn't have a second spot for another 10 gauge wire from the starter. Question is: would it still be beneficial to add a second wire direct to the same spot on the ignition? I'd just solder the two wire on. I'm thinking it would accomplish the same as have that second spot on the ignition.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Dave, as you might guess by my previous posts, I'm not a big fan of the brown wire fix. All it does is provide an alternative current path from the starter motor to the ignition switch, but this should already be accomplished with the original brown wire with good connections. Some people think it reduces the current going through the ignition switch, but it doesn't do that unless you find an entirely alternate set of contact points within the switch to use.

But, back to basics: What is the issue you want to fix with the "brown wire fix"? Many problems can be fixed by just cleaning up the electrical connections between the starter motor and the ignition switch.

-Bryan

[dinghyguy]

and adding relays to the system for high loads like headlights, starter and wipers thus reducing arcing on ignition switch contacts.....

cheers
dinghyguy

[spider2081]

What is the issue you want to fix with the "brown wire fix"? Many problems can be fixed by just cleaning up the electrical connections between the starter motor and the ignition switch.

I don't understand the logic of the "brown wire fix" either.
I have attempted to use # 10 butt connectors on the factory "brown" wire and found the wire is too large for the butt connector. I wonder if metric wire sizes can be directly crossed to AWG sizes.
The existing "brown" wire is ample size for the current it carries.
I think all Fiat Spiders have a Brown wire in line connection in the engine bay. This connection is often the cause of the "dreaded click" the brown wire fix is used to cure. Keeping that connection tight and clean is easier than modifying the cars wiring.

[DieselSpider]

and adding relays to the system for high loads like headlights, starter and wipers thus reducing arcing on ignition switch contacts.....

cheers
dinghyguy

Ditto on adding relays.

I am considering adding a main power relay so that the only load on the ignition switch will be just the milli-amps required to run the relays. The Solenoid on the Diesel Starter draws much more current than the one on the Gas engine since it has to hold the starter drive against the force of a 2 kWh starter instead of just an 850 watt (0.850 kWh) starter putting a much higher load on the starter contacts in the ignition switch so that was the first relay I installed.

Just look at all the posts about having the replace the ignition switch because of starting issues most of which likely could have been avoided by adding a relay to the starter circuit.

[DaveMarcotte]

Hey Bryan
Not so much an issue with ignition. Just trying to do what I can to avoid issues others have had and I still haven't resolve the issue I did have with the 123 ignition I bought that never worked. There was a spark but weak. The 123 trouble shooting site was very clear that this issue is usually caused by a resistance issue somewhere from ignition to the coil. I gave up and bought an electronic ignition with the ignition module, and the car started right up. The 123 was still within warranty so was sent back for testing which it passed. They even sent a video showing a good spark. All that to say, I'd like to get the 123 into my car but there seem to be an issue I can't ID. Yes the electronic dizzy in now works but I still having trouble with the advance which I was hoping the 123 bluetooth would resolve. BTW I tried 2 new coils with the 123.
Thanks for any input.

[spider2081]

The 123 trouble shooting site was very clear that this issue is usually caused by a resistance issue somewhere from ignition to the coil.

Resistance before the coil will cause a loss of voltage at the coil when the circuit is in operation.

I have found some electronic ignition systems like the PerTronix need more than 10 volts at the igniter to operate properly.
Testing for voltage loss before the coil can be done by putting a volt meter on the coils B+ terminal (ignition switch side). Disconnect everything from the - side of the coil (points side) turn ignition key on and record the voltage measured. Then momentarily ground the - side of the coil. Again record the voltage measured at the positive side. The change in voltage should not exceed more than 2 volts. A voltage greater that 10 volts should be present at the B+ side of the coil with the minus side grounded. Some loss is normal. Do not leave the ground on for too long as it could cause the coil to over heat.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Not so much an issue with ignition. Just trying to do what I can to avoid issues others have had and I still haven't resolve the issue I did have with the 123 ignition I bought that never worked.

Dave, I don't have any direct experience, but I can tell you that many people have not gotten these 123 units to work properly on Fiat spiders (Steiny, are you out there?). I've never been able to see what the issue was, but it seems like they will work if everything else is perfect, but not otherwise.

I think Spider2081's voltage test above is a good one, and in fact I may do that test on my cars just for grins. That being said, I'm an old school guy who runs points and condensers. Oh, the humanity!!!

Also, I assume your spark plugs and wires are all good? Point gap is not excessive?

-Bryan

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Do not leave the ground on for too long as it could cause the coil to over heat.

Very good advice, and it will also damage your points if you have those. It turns out the DC current when the ignition is on but the engine is not running is quite high, but when the engine is running, you have the inductance of the coil to consider, since the current flow is more AC-like as the points open and close. The effect is that the resistance (reactance) is quite a bit more, and thus the current is far less. That's why points can last a fairly long time as long as the engine is running. Same with the coil.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

-Bryan

[DaveMarcotte]

The 123 trouble shooting site was very clear that this issue is usually caused by a resistance issue somewhere from ignition to the coil.

Resistance before the coil will cause a loss of voltage at the coil when the circuit is in operation.

I have found some electronic ignition systems like the PerTronix need more than 10 volts at the igniter to operate properly.
Testing for voltage loss before the coil can be done by putting a volt meter on the coils B+ terminal (ignition switch side). Disconnect everything from the - side of the coil (points side) turn ignition key on and record the voltage measured. Then momentarily ground the - side of the coil. Again record the voltage measured at the positive side. The change in voltage should not exceed more than 2 volts. A voltage greater that 10 volts should be present at the B+ side of the coil with the minus side grounded. Some loss is normal. Do not leave the ground on for too long as it could cause the coil to over heat.

Did that. over 12 volts. Slight drop as you said when I ground the coil but still good.

[spider2081]

Did that. over 12 volts. Slight drop as you said when I ground the coil but still good.

You can not have more voltage at the coil then your 12 volt battery can charge to. In my mind you have proved low voltage for the 123 ignition is not the issue.
When the engines starter is engaged that is the greatest draw on your cars electrical system. It is normal for a good batteries voltage to drop slightly below 11 volts when the starter is engaged. It's during this time electronic ignitions have the most difficult time functioning correctly. Its symptom is hard starting or starting the instant the key returns to the run position. At that instant the high demand the starter required is removed and the battery voltage increases. Hence increasing the sparks continuous reliability

[SteinOnkel]

Not so much an issue with ignition. Just trying to do what I can to avoid issues others have had and I still haven't resolve the issue I did have with the 123 ignition I bought that never worked.

Dave, I don't have any direct experience, but I can tell you that many people have not gotten these 123 units to work properly on Fiat spiders (Steiny, are you out there?). I've never been able to see what the issue was, but it seems like they will work if everything else is perfect, but not otherwise.

I think Spider2081's voltage test above is a good one, and in fact I may do that test on my cars just for grins. That being said, I'm an old school guy who runs points and condensers. Oh, the humanity!!!

Also, I assume your spark plugs and wires are all good? Point gap is not excessive?

-Bryan

On the ignition:

High Energy Ignition Control Unit. It's this banana:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/153039645135?c ... OsQAvD_BwE

Same thing that Fiat used, just under a different name and therefore dirt cheap.

Wire it up according to this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/25lGK ... 95-h696-no

The Ground point at the screw is critical!

And connect it to a heatsink. I used something out of an old PC Power Supply Unit I had flying around.

This +1979 Fiat distributor + generic $15 coil is the only ignition a Spider will ever need.

On the brown wire thingy: Does not do anything at all. The contact internally on the ignition switch is exactly the same, it just has two outputs.