Dead starter?

[LynninOK]

Hey guys, this is my first technical question here, please forgive my inexperience. I have been searching the site, but haven't been successful at finding what I'm after.
I'm working on a 78 Spider. I have been messing with the distributor, cleaning up some PO "mods." Anyway, I had to remove the dizzy and now I'm starting from scratch with timing and such. While cranking, the starter just quit spinning the motor and I saw some magic smoke from the solenoid area. My wife and I had been trying to start the car for a few minutes, only turning the starter 10 seconds or so at a time.
This morning, I removed the starter and opened it up, nothing looked out of place or burned. I reinstalled it, cleaned up a ground that ran from the body to the tranny, I also removed the spark plugs and spun the motor with a strap wrench on the crank pulley. It had resistance, but definitely was moving freely. I gave it another try, nothing. The solenoid is clicking, but that's it.
I figured that the battery may be low from the cranking, so I hooked my battery charger to it and let it soak for a little bit. This time, the motor spun slowly with the starter. Then my charger let out its own "magic smoke."
Are these obvious symptoms of a starter that's done? There are other PO "mods" that still need to be dealt with, the wire from the male spade terminal on the solenoid goes to a relay. That's not stock is it?
Sorry for the long post.
Thanks,
Lynn

[So Cal Mark]

you really need a voltmeter to do any diagnosis, otherwise you're limited to looking for loose connections and replacing parts by guessing

[LynninOK]

Thanks Mark. I just had the starter tested at my local O'Really's. It tested good on their machine, I know their tests aren't always accurate.
I have a feeling my battery may be weak. The car has sat for about a month, and then I did a little cranking on it yesterday. It was only showing 11.9-12.1 volts earlier today. This battery was in the car when we got it this past summer, I really have no idea how old it is.
I'm going to print off some wiring diagrams and try to figure out what the PO did under the hood. It looks mostly untouched except for the relay from the solenoid. My battery cables "look" ok too.
I've heard these cars have elec issues, at least the wires are color coded. I also mess around with old IH Scouts and pickups, every wire in a light duty IH is green! They're a lot of fun to trace out.
Thanks,
Lynn

[dmwhiteoak]

You really need to start with a fully charged battery. That may be your only problem.

[LynninOK]

That's my plan for in the morning. I've got a known good battery in another vehicle I'm going to try.
I'll post back what I find. I'm also going to trace out that relay thats tied to the solenoid.
Thanks
Lynn

[vandor]

>It was only showing 11.9-12.1 volts earlier today.

That is likely your problem. A good battery will have 12.5 volts. You are supposed to disconnect the charger while cranking, unless it has a 'start' function.

This is a good time to add an extra body to engine ground cable.

[LynninOK]

Thanks Csaba.
I'll add that to my list to do this morning, once I get a fire built out in my shop.
BTW, Lynn is my wife and she created this profile. My name is Ian and it will almost always be me posting here. All she knows is that she wants her car nice and ready when spring returns.

Lynn(Ian)

[LynninOK]

I'm at a loss now. Here's what I've done this morning:
-I grabbed the battery from my Travelall(one of my IH trucks) and hooked it up with factory cables-one click at solenoid
-Checked battery with volt meter=12.4volts
-Dug out some short battery cables, unhooked stock +cable from solenoid, hooked up short batt cable to + of solenoid. I took a set of jumper cables, hooked both clamps to -post of battery. One clamp to the body, one clamp to the tranny(near where factory ground is). I got multiple clicks at the solenoid, motor kind of wanted to turn.
-I tried various setups with grounds, checking resistance multiple times at multiple places, still no start(or spin)
-I put the battery back in the Travelall, started it, let it run for 20 minutes or so. Shows 14+ volts while running. Ran jumpers from running T-all to Fiat battery which is hooked up to short temporary cables, multiple clicks at solenoid.
-I removed all four spark plugs, rehooked my setup, clicks at solenoid.
I can spin the motor without too much effort. Once or twice, the starter spun the motor, but barely. I don't think it's hydro-locked or anything. This is getting frustrating.
My next move is to go have the old battery tested and maybe get a new one. But then again, I've already tried a battery that will start a 30 year old V-8.
If I have the timing way off, would that keep the motor from spinning? On Friday, it was trying to fire, so I can't be that far.
I also added 10ga grounds from both junction points on the fenders to bolts on the motor. The relay by my solenoid seems to be a "hot start" kind of thing. It's switched by the factory red wire and is fed from the post on the alternator. I bypassed the relay and hooked the red wire back to the solenoid, no change.
Thanks,
Lynn(Ian)

[LynninOK]

I'm still at it. I'm now at the point where I'm thinking the starter may indeed be bad even though it tested good at a parts store. Their machines are nowhere near a real world setup.

[So Cal Mark]

you need to check voltage at the solenoid when you're trying to get it to crank. A clicking solenoid usually indicates low voltage

[surfingfreeman]

I suffered from the IWSS "intermittent won't start syndrome" ended up replacing the starter with one of marks (very nice) but still needed to get an original replacement ignition switch as the PO had put in one of those Lada pos's, no more problems, you might if you get the car running feel the wires coming out of the ignition switch and if they are warm or hot, that may well need replacing, you really should buy a decent voltmeter you can use them on a bunch of stuff.

[spider2081]

I agree with Mark you need to check the voltage on the solenoid terminal (push on terminal small wire). This takes 2 people one to turn the key to start and one with the meter.
I made a test wire with a female terminal on one end and a male terminal on the other end. The female terminal has a second wire that is about 2 feet long. I disconnect the push terminal from the solenoid and install the test wire, The extra wire lets me connect the voltmeter and watch it through the windshield while I turn the key.
There is a single red wire terminal on many cars about 8" from the starter in the wire that connects the solenoid to the ignition switch. This connector is very troublesome. Also the ignition switch plug itself gives lots of intermittent problems.
It's best to test the circuit before throwing parts at a problem like this.

[surfingfreeman]

Totally agree with you 2081, it's imperative to identify the problem by systematically testing each potentially faulty part/circuit etc.

[LynninOK]

Thanks guys, I'm taking notes. I do have a multi-meter and have been using it.
If it's low voltage, then something in the car is creating resistance. I tried to start the Fiat with a battery that will start a 30yr old V8. Also, I was using short battery cables, not the stock ones.
I'll get back to it probably Friday.
I appreciate the input and I will update when I can.
Thanks
Lynn(Ian)

[dmwhiteoak]

In my years of working on equipment and auto's, I have discovered that simply connecting a good battery to a bad with cables does not work. Take the other battery out of the equation. You may be surprised at the results.