No Spark Situation / Magnetic Pickup Troubleshooting

[18Fiatsandcounting]

The timing marks are hard to read accurately, one of my pet peeves with these engines. Over the years, most of us have learned to calibrate our eyeballs to be able to read these darn things.

By the way, are your timing marks on the passenger side of the engine, or are the marks on the timing cover and on the driver's side of the car? Cleaning up both the notch on the crankshaft pulley and the marks on the cover/timing plate definitely helps. Some people paint the notch in the pulley with white paint (the correction fluid "whiteout" works) to make it more visible.

Another tip to at least get you in the ballpark is to use the index holes in the camshaft pulleys as referenced against the raised nubs on the camshaft housings. It's not very accurate, but these are usually easier to see. Unless you have one of those timing belt covers that totally obscures the back of the pulleys in which case you're outta luck.

-Bryan

[AlexD]

The timing marks are hard to read accurately, one of my pet peeves with these engines. Over the years, most of us have learned to calibrate our eyeballs to be able to read these darn things.

By the way, are your timing marks on the passenger side of the engine, or are the marks on the timing cover and on the driver's side of the car? Cleaning up both the notch on the crankshaft pulley and the marks on the cover/timing plate definitely helps. Some people paint the notch in the pulley with white paint (the correction fluid "whiteout" works) to make it more visible.

Another tip to at least get you in the ballpark is to use the index holes in the camshaft pulleys as referenced against the raised nubs on the camshaft housings. It's not very accurate, but these are usually easier to see. Unless you have one of those timing belt covers that totally obscures the back of the pulleys in which case you're outta luck.

-Bryan

Thanks for the insights - it's quickly become a pet peeve of mine as well. I'm so very fortunate to have a timing belt cover completely obscuring so am definitely out of luck with using the camshaft pulley index holes. My timing marks are on the passenger side. I was able to mark the timing plate points and the notch on the crankshaft pulley with a paint pen so I should have a better shot of assessing the timing with the light.

I manually advanced the engine to find TDC which turned into a 5 hour ordeal as I used the "dowel in the plug hole" method and ended up snapping a dowel leaving a 2" piece in the hole. For some strange reason I was calm and rational and took my time with a combination of a bore scope, rigged up vacuum tube, soft bendable bottle/tube brush, and one of those thin flexible grabber/claw thingamajigs. Literally I wandered the garage, house, and internet (where I eventually read about using plastic straws instead of dowels for this reason - where was THAT information yesterday?? ) looking for any and every idea. By some divine intervention I was able to maneuver the piece enough to get the claw on the very end and pulled it out at lunchtime today. I felt like MacGyver...

I was pleased to see that, at TDC (based on the plastic straws), the pulley notch line up with the 0* point on the timing plate. I'll get the dizzy rotor aligned with #4 and give it another go sometime later today/tonight. If it works, awesome. If not, I'm going to admit defeat and take it to the mechanic...

[18Fiatsandcounting]

I'll get the dizzy rotor aligned with #4 and give it another go sometime later today/tonight. If it works, awesome. If not, I'm going to admit defeat and take it to the mechanic...

Alex, if it's any reassurance, you're doing all the right things, and all the mechanic would do is to do the same things and charge you $100/hr. for that. Or more.

Normally, setting ignition timing on older cars is a pretty simple thing, but for some reason, on these spiders it often is not.

-Bryan

[AlexD]

I'll get the dizzy rotor aligned with #4 and give it another go sometime later today/tonight. If it works, awesome. If not, I'm going to admit defeat and take it to the mechanic...

Alex, if it's any reassurance, you're doing all the right things, and all the mechanic would do is to do the same things and charge you $100/hr. for that. Or more.

Normally, setting ignition timing on older cars is a pretty simple thing, but for some reason, on these spiders it often is not.

-Bryan

It does give me reassurance and I appreciate the feedback and input. Good to know that I'm approaching it the right way and even better to know that these Spiders are more finicky than other older cars. So, I'll give it a little trial-and-error effort a bit longer. I went out today and lined the rotor to #4 (looked like it was a bit before #4 but as close as I could get it after a few attempts) and got a huge backfire from the engine that blew off the air intake hose from the filter box. There's a new clue that certainly got my attention... . Sounds like I may have had the rotor too far ahead of #4 so I'll reset and tweak it a bit. They're a labor of love, right??? That's what I keep telling myself at this point.

[Nut124]

AlexD, keep at it. It will eventually be easy. Reliable and accurate timing marks are important though. If you ever do work on the engine, do check and validate, improve if needed, the timing marks.

Spitting back into the air cleaner I believe is a sign of retarded spark, something so late that there is still combustion going on when the intake valve opens. I'd turn the dizzy CCW at least 10 dizzy deg, which is 20 crank degrees.

Engines like advance at idle. So, when aligning the dizzy at TDC for first time starting, I try to set the dizzy base so that the rotor is in the middle of #4 electrode and then turn the base CCW a few degrees.

I trace the #4 electrode inside the cap down to the bottom rim of the cap and then make a black mark on the dizzy housing to aid in aligning.

In my experience, with carb engines, when you turn the dizzy CCW at low rpms, the engine will pick up rpm up to at least 30deg advance. After that it will start to slow down and eventually, at some point, maybe 40-45 degrees it will start to sound bad and kind of buck hard and stall due to too much advance. The best idle is not at the spec advance, 10 degrees, typically.
However, do set the advance at idle to the spec or there will be too much advance at top end. This is assuming no vac advance during adjustment.

[dinghyguy]

Just a suggestion, check that the spark plug leads go to the correct plugs.......The cap may be marked so you can easily check. No timing will make it work right if 1 and 2 leads are switched. Ask me how i know.......

Cheers
Dinghyguy

[AlexD]

Spitting back into the air cleaner I believe is a sign of retarded spark, something so late that there is still combustion going on when the intake valve opens. I'd turn the dizzy CCW at least 10 dizzy deg, which is 20 crank degrees.

Engines like advance at idle. So, when aligning the dizzy at TDC for first time starting, I try to set the dizzy base so that the rotor is in the middle of #4 electrode and then turn the base CCW a few degrees.

I trace the #4 electrode inside the cap down to the bottom rim of the cap and then make a black mark on the dizzy housing to aid in aligning.

Haven't had much of a chance to get back at it aside from detecting that I had air leaking from #1 spark plug by way of a clear "hiss" when I was manually turning the main crank and got to the compression stage. Found that the plug was cross-threaded so I cleaned it up with a chaser tool yesterday and will get back at it this afternoon. Appreciate the input and recommendations here - will give it a try today. Love the idea of tracking a line down from the #4 electrode and marking the dizzy housing - that will help for sure.

Just a suggestion, check that the spark plug leads go to the correct plugs.......The cap may be marked so you can easily check. No timing will make it work right if 1 and 2 leads are switched. Ask me how i know.......

Cheers
Dinghyguy

I actually disconnected and reorganized the plug leads yesterday (as they were a jumbled mess and it was irritating my OCD) and noticed that they were all mixed up actually - #1 and #4 were reversed as were #2 and #3. I've got them all properly matched to the respective electrodes now - hopefully they weren't reordered for a specific reason by the PO. We'll find out soon enough...

[Nut124]

Just a suggestion, check that the spark plug leads go to the correct plugs.......The cap may be marked so you can easily check. No timing will make it work right if 1 and 2 leads are switched. Ask me how i know.......

Cheers
Dinghyguy

I actually disconnected and reorganized the plug leads yesterday (as they were a jumbled mess and it was irritating my OCD) and noticed that they were all mixed up actually - #1 and #4 were reversed as were #2 and #3. I've got them all properly matched to the respective electrodes now - hopefully they weren't reordered for a specific reason by the PO. We'll find out soon enough...

Dinghyguy gets the throphy, it seems.

If #4 and #1 were reversed, that would suggest that the PO was trying to set it to fire on #1 at the TDC mark, like most other engines. An old time mechanic w/o a shop manual might just have done that to get it running after cussing. In this case, he would line up the rotor with #1 on the cap and then, eventually, swap 1&4, 2&3 to get it running.

These Fiats fire on #4 at the correct TDC mark, where the cams are aligned correctly as well.

That would explain all your troubles and then some.

[AlexD]

After a bit more fiddling and a good number of "a little bit this way....a little bit that way..." configuration of the dizzy, the car finally fired which was refreshing. The final rotor alignment that worked and allowed me to adjust ignition timing to 10*BTDC felt to me like it was 90*-180* from where I was always trying to be. Maybe I was a little foggy at that point but the engine fired and I was able to confirm the timing to 10*. It idled just fine but when I give it throttle it hesitates and I get no RPM increase - just kind of chokes. I also just noticed when tried to start it that on every couple cranks it "binds up" a bit as if it's struggling to crank then fires. I have a video that I can't seem to figure out how to post yet.

I'll do some more research to see if these two things are related or if they're independent of each other. I'm wondering if one of the retarded spark/spit back into the air cleaner situations screwed something up. I can move the flap in the air box and it springs back pretty freely. Maybe it's still a timing thing.

At this point it feels like a battle of will between two aging, stubborn Italian men....

[AlexD]

Just found this post from a few years ago that's almost exactly what I'm experiencing now. The video clip embedded in the post is what my car is now sounding like.

I’ve been having this problem for a while now and I want to solve it when the warm weather returns soon. Sometimes the car (80 Spider FI) starts right away, other times it turns over very slowly as you can hear from this YouTube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lS9o3K ... e=youtu.be

It always starts even though it takes a while sometimes. There’s no real pattern to when this occurs. Any thoughts what the problem could be? Where should I start checking? Thanks in advance.
Greg

[Nut124]

Alex, sounds like you are making progress, good.

I doubt that the spitting did any damage.

Does the engine die hard, like in a single revolution, with some clunking noises? Or fade away slowly? If the former, to me that would be a sign of too much advance, like in the 40+deg range. This would be because when you open the throttle, the higher cylinder fill rate burn faster and too much advance literally stops the piston before TDC.

If this sounds like what you are experiencing, then I would suspect a problem with the timing marks and turn the dizzy CW about 15 degrees, (30 crank degrees) and try again.

If you get the car idling, try this:

Slowly rotate the dizzy CCW, rpm should start dropping and engine should eventually fade away and stop.

Turning CW, rpm should rise, until dropping eventually, where the sound changes to harsh. My experience has been that peak rmp is at about 30deg advance. However, it needs to be set it at 10 or so in order not to exceed 36-38 degrees total timing at top end.

[spider2081]

I am not good at picking up details when reading so maybe I missed this point. When the crankshaft timing mark is at its 0 degree pointer are both the cam wheels timing marks properly aligned to their pointers ? The piston is TDC twice during the 4 cycles of the engine. The distributor rotor needs to point to #4 spark plug wire in the cap when the cam timing marks and the crank timing marks all are in alignment.

[AlexD]

If you get the car idling, try this:

Slowly rotate the dizzy CCW, rpm should start dropping and engine should eventually fade away and stop.

Turning CW, rpm should rise, until dropping eventually, where the sound changes to harsh. My experience has been that peak rmp is at about 30deg advance. However, it needs to be set it at 10 or so in order not to exceed 36-38 degrees total timing at top end.

Once started, the engine doesn’t fade or die - it idles just fine but seems restricted and sputters when I give it throttle. I’ll try what you recommend today.

I am not good at picking up details when reading so maybe I missed this point. When the crankshaft timing mark is at its 0 degree pointer are both the cam wheels timing marks properly aligned to their pointers ? The piston is TDC twice during the 4 cycles of the engine. The distributor rotor needs to point to #4 spark plug wire in the cap when the cam timing marks and the crank timing marks all are in alignment.

Great question and it’s about the only thing I don’t know as I’ve got a timing cover in place that limit my view of the cam wheels. I’ve wondered (and now suspect even more) that the cam timing marks aren’t properly aligned at 0* on the crankshaft timing mark. I read yesterday that the pistons make two revolutions (which you’ve just reiterated) and it wouldn’t surprise me if I’ve been on the off stroke every time I’ve timed it since I was just using the crankshaft timing mark and “straw in the spark plug hole” method to find TDC. I’ll try to see if I can get eyes on the cam timing marks with a scope camera today to avoid having to take the timing cover off. Worse case, I’ll bite the bullet and remove it some point this weekend.

[spider2081]

I don’t know as I’ve got a timing cover in place that limit my view of the cam wheels.

Looking from the back of the engine toward the black metal covers behind the cam gears there might be 2 rubber plugs in the cover one for each cam wheel. remove the plugs and the hole in the cam gear will be able to be seen There is a raised area (line) in the cam box that the hole in the cam gear should align with. Both gears should align with the line when the crank timing is TDC.

[AlexD]

I don’t know as I’ve got a timing cover in place that limit my view of the cam wheels.

Looking from the back of the engine toward the black metal covers behind the cam gears there might be 2 rubber plugs in the cover one for each cam wheel. remove the plugs and the hole in the cam gear will be able to be seen There is a raised area (line) in the cam box that the hole in the cam gear should align with. Both gears should align with the line when the crank timing is TDC.

Didn’t realize that (probably should have known it by now) - many thanks for the quick reply and insight. I’m headed out to take a look at that right now…