My '76 so far....

[reidyyz]

Hey, its been some time....

If I haven't said it before, I have wanted to drive this car since I got it May 2021 and I'm only doing what I have to to get it certified and to a point of reliability for the occasional spin. The body is in reasonably great shape with the exception of the big gapping hole under the foot pedals, and the paint will not win any concourse shows but I. Just. Want. To. Drive. It. Unlike my workplace proximity associate that has had a '70's muscle car for 12 years and did a spectacular full restoration, but is now afraid to drive it as its now worth over $100G's, fortunately (or unfortunately if you prefer) I wont have this problem.

I spent summer '21 going through and cleaning up the wiring by removing, by my estimate, 30 ft of unused wiring or fixing mods or repairs from P.O. and cleaning grounds as I go. I also went in and did some de-smogging as well. It certainly cleaned up the engine bay.

I spent this past summer worked on fuel items: new flex fuel lines, pump, tank removal and inspect (clean), and my previously posted check valve/fuel separator replacement solution and I even installed a fuel pressure gauge right before the carb, for future troubleshooting. And then I started paying attention to my transmission/driveline related parts.

So, my shifter had no apparent spring tension holding it up to keep it from going into reverse but the spring is not broken, just not installed correctly. Ref: https://www.spiderroadster.com/124shift1.htm

The spring was sandwiched between items 25 and 27 being Upper Shifter Cup and the Lower Shifter Cup with the spring going through item 26 plastic Socket with the Upper Cup above the socket and the Lower Cup below. Yeah, it wasn't right but it doesn't matter as I'm giving the shifter a refresh with new lower socket kit and upper shifter extension bushing kit install as well and it will be put back together right. The spinning shifter doesn't bother me at all, but if the wife or children get into it at some point, I don't want them going left and up into 'upsidedown' reverse and driving straight into something, trying to back out.

In messing with the shifter I felt it prudent to pull out the drive shaft and give that a fresh as well (paint, UV joints, Centre bearing, Guibo), which was a wise decision as A) although it appeared in good condition, the age of the Guibo was questionable and I didn't want a roadside issue in my future B) the centre mount bearing rubber was disintegrating. All this for the "reliability" part of the mission. But I did run across a curiosity. Ref fig:

https://www.middlebartongarage.com/Prod ... 968-85/245

Item 7 being some sort of cross brace that physically does not touch the shaft (unlike the other bearing support cross brace) on my car has some sort of unit that is black plastic, 3/4" dia. round, with two electrical tabs protruding. When I check resistance across the tabs, it has about 300 kilo-ohms resistance that momentarily fluctuate when in proximity of a magnet and no change when in prox with drive shaft or any other ferrous item. In the figure, you can see a hole in the middle of the brace where this button, if you will, is mounted. At first I thought it was only some sort of bumper but the electrical tabs made me curious. There is no wiring tied back or even close. I am just curious if anyone else has come across this?

Thanks,

[18Fiatsandcounting]

In the figure, you can see a hole in the middle of the brace where this button, if you will, is mounted. At first I thought it was only some sort of bumper but the electrical tabs made me curious. There is no wiring tied back or even close. I am just curious if anyone else has come across this?

Appreciate the updates on your progress! As for that cross brace (#7), my assumption is that it supports the front end of the driveshaft should your giubo ever break apart. Otherwise, your car would end up attempted a pole vault using the driveshaft into the pavement, which would likely not turn out well. So, a safety precaution.

As for the "button" with the electrical tabs, and this is a total guess on my part, but perhaps it was an attempt to measure the rotational speed of the driveshaft, using a magnet mounted on the driveshaft? But, this is exactly what the speedometer does, so I'm not sure I see the value.

-Bryan

[spider2081]

perhaps it was an attempt to measure the rotational speed of the driveshaft, using a magnet mounted on the driveshaft?

I think this is a good guess. Many cruise controls have an input that monitors the driveshaft speed. Maintaining the driveshafts speed controls the cars speed. Does the car have any other cruise control parts installed?? Years ago I installed an Autiovox CCS 100 in my 1981 Spider and it works surprisingly well. I don't think they are available for purchase anymore.

[reidyyz]

I wrote out a whole response about my theory of the sensor (shaft loss system) and about my nightmare with the cooling system (three broken bolts/rotten threads). I walked away, didn't save the draft and poof! GONZO!! I have an early day, will tell the story another day but the short version: "This car @#$%EN hates me!" Was all I had floating around my head for about a week.

Henry

[18Fiatsandcounting]

I have an early day, will tell the story another day but the short version: "This car @#$%EN hates me!" Was all I had floating around my head for about a week.

Don't keep us hanging, spit out the story, man!

-Bryan

[reidyyz]

Since i was changing the timing belt,I would do a cooling system overhaul. I decided now was not the time to mess around so i got a new pump, belt, hoses and external thermostat and get a health check on the rad and heater core. The rad and core are still in the rad shop, but looking good in terms of small leaks repaired and core checked.

The internal thermostat housing attach points for the timing belt cover needed attention. One of the holes were elongated and needed a new helicoil. Great, done. Going to reinstall the housing, the last bolt snapped with no effort. I'm built like a chicken wing so i know it wasn't over torqued. Just an old shitty bolt. Okay, got that out, housing installed and as I've seen a few places on here, decided to leave out the internal thermostat.

Next was the water pump. Before getting into that i decided it would be a good idea just to clean out the boss threads with a thread chaser. First three went well, very well. Little to no effort with a 1/4" ratchet and lots of oil, so no way was over torque going to be an issue. Looking good so far with contestant #4 until SNAP! @#$&!!! A machine shop near my house where i could trailer the car to said they could only drill it on a bench, not in situ. So that would be an engine out situation. Double @#$&!!! So, off to Crappy Tire where i bought a collection of cobalt bits in 1/16" increments and drilled slow with lots of oil. I got it out, retapped and put in a new helicoil. For about a week it was traumatizing, I have since recovered. And because i'm not filling the system and doing leak checks until the spring, ill only know of my success or failure then.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Wow, Henry, I feel your pain. The 4 bolts on the water pump and the 4 bolts on the top coolant/thermosat housing are undersized in my opinion, in terms of strength, and they often snap off if they haven't been removed in a long while. Been there, done that...

-Bryan

[reidyyz]

Just reading back I realized I never answered the question, but no, no other cruise control components. I even contacted the shop in the UK to ask about the button, they had no idea what I was talking about. So that answers this question, there is no answer.

Yes, I agree, the components could benefit if there was a jump in size of the hardware and less concern in torquing them down.

A few things I failed to mention:
- I also installed a fuel filter before the carb, because there never was one. Mounted on a custom bracket secured to the cooling fan bracket. Up and out of the way to make it easier and cleaner to change in the future.
- I did a little refresh on the horns (paint, new tubing and previously mentioned compressor cleaning) and it was great scaring the crap out of the girl child and her friends.
- I have also cut out new paneling for the dash and consoles. Finishing them will be an indoor winter project. I will be incorporating a usb charge port connected to the light socket under the steering column.
- I also did a refresh of the bumpers with paint, new turn signal mount hardware. As well as an end cap that got bent and torn was straightened and resecured. I also depressurized the shocks, to tuck the bumpers later.
- Trany oil change in progress as it got too cold to pour the oil back in. With a reverse gear switch replacement as the wiring got caught and was ripped off with the tabs.
- I replaced three of the relay bases on the frt left fender as the little tabs were broken and they were held together with elex tape.
- As the trunk lock was completely pooched, I've engineered a remote cable trunk release, but let's see how that goes when the interior is back together.
- And one of the first things I did was go with a stud kit for the wheels. Quite a few of the lug bolts were held on with more hope and faith and less thread. I think in all, there were physically three different types and sizes of bolts.
- Heater box mechanism was all cleaned and lubed as a couple of the cables were stiff/sticky and now waiting for heater core to come back to throw it all back together.

It seems like a lot, but that's over two COVID summers, and quite a few of these were overlapping others. I'm waiting on parts from AR to come through Niagara Falls, but as God hates Buffalo N.Y., (dumping 6 ft of snow on them as I type this) it may be some time before I get them in hand.

[reidyyz]

A wee update: 1) rad and heater core ready to go back in after pressure checks and repairs with a coat of paint on the rad, not the core because of the stink all for C$150
2) drive shaft ready to go back in with new support bearing, uni. joints, coat of paint and guibo
But those will happen in March because of where the car is, outside in God's Garage.
I am also doing an overhaul of the shifter lower end and upper bushings as well as a refresh on the knob. I've scraped out the old gross paint and am wondering if any have experience in repainting the numbers/letter? A workplace proximity associate suggested model paint with a toothpick and clean up with something-something-something grit Emery cloth. Any other tips?
Thanks,

[reidyyz]

I did the shifter pattern as per my friends suggestion with the tooth pick and it came out great. I stained and top coat the new fabricated wood dash/trim panels in a white wash grey colour. All new panels except the center shifter console because of the metal bracket backing. Sanded and stained, its a close enough match to the new panels. The original honey coloured and cracked/peeling varnish look doesn't suit the silver car. I am shooting for an April on-the-road date as the rad shop, as it was originally now a full mech shop, is an approved Ontario Ministry of Transport inspection shop. The owner told me new rules are coming out when it comes to documenting the recerts. Video proof, more stringent guidelines etc...

So I gotta get on it because I just want to drive it.....

[reidyyz]

I'm doing the BWF and my ign switch only has one 30 pole, not the two I read about all over the place so it seems I can't do the BWF. The 30 I have had a double Br, one to starter the other to the removed buzzer deactivated by the PO. The remaining poles are 2x INT, 2x16 and 1x 30/1, 50, 15 and the 30. The switch is stamped 'made in hungary' with Cyrillic writing around the bezel

So question: what kind of ign SW am I dealing with here in terms of is it cheap crap to replace because it fails, or is it an upgraded one that is more sturdy that doesn't need the second Brown wire to the starter and won't fail me? I'm hoping it's the latter.

Thanks

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Just my opinion here, but the brown wire fix is a false god. It does work, but there are better ways to address the issues. The issues are usually caused by one or more of three things:
1) The switch contacts inside the ignition switch are going bad (simple aging or related to #2 below) or,
2) Too much current flows through the ignition switch if many electrical things are turned on, and this can be solved by the use of relays, or,
3) The electrical connector from the starter motor to the firewall has poor connections, often causes by oil residue buildup on that side of the engine (being the intake side, it doesn't say as clean as the hotter exhaust side of the engine).

I think your ignition switch connections will be just fine, but it does take some sleuthing to figure out which wires go to which contacts. You would need to verify this with an ohmmeter for your switch, but here's how it usually is set up. As you mentioned, the brown wire goes to terminal 30. This is connected to terminal 50 when the key is in the start position, and so this is the red wire that goes to the starter solenoid. Terminal 16 is also connected to terminal 30 (brown wire) when the key is in the start position, and terminal 16 powers other electrics that are only used when in start (and not run) positions. The "INT" terminals are powered when the key is in either the start or run position, and so these INT terminals power most of the electrics in the car. The 30/1 terminal is similar to terminal 30, and it's "output" is terminal 15 which powers other vehicle electrics and usually the ignition system. Terminal 30 is often fed by a black wire that does to the alternator output terminal.

Hope this helps.
-Bryan

[spider2081]

I'm doing the BWF and my ign switch only has one 30 pole,

I agree with Bryan, the Brown wire fix is not a fix but rather a bypass to an existing issue. Often the actual problem is a connection in the engine compartment. Most Spiders have a connector that the brown wire passes through from the starters battery cable to feed the ignition switch. Also the red wire from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid passes through a connector in the engine compartment. Somewhere in the 70s the connection type was changed from a 3 cavity nylon connector to single bullet connectors for each wire. The connections are on the driver side fender well, under the hood, behind the alternator. These connections can become intermittent over time and cause to the "dreaded click". Locating the connections and cleaning them often corrects the issue.

The original ignition switch installed by Fiat was manufactured by Sipea. Their factory logo is an oval with the name Sipea within the oval. It would be stamped in the shinny face near where the key is inserted. There are a number aftermarket of aftermarket switches that have been available over a period of years. I think the most common is made for a Lada. Although the physical size of the switch is nearly identical to a Sipea switch, the electrical portion is different and requires some wiring changes to function in a Fiat car.

[reidyyz]

Excellent, thanks for the break down. After digging around under the hood yesterday, I realized the BWF is not necessary after all because a PO did the remote start relay modification. My deductive reasoning would say that there must have been a problem and the fix was replace the switch (which looks relatively newish) and put in the relay.

So, sort of related, the wiring for the radio is a disaster but confirm 16 is where I should pickup to power the radio?

Thx

[18Fiatsandcounting]

So, sort of related, the wiring for the radio is a disaster but confirm 16 is where I should pickup to power the radio?

Your ignition switch may be different, but on the ignition switches that I've come across, terminal 16 is only powered when the key is in the momentary "start" position. I'd use the INT terminal to power the radio, although I'd put in a separate inline fuse dedicated for just the radio.

You can also wire the radio directly to a +12V source, but then your radio could run the battery down if you forgot to turn it off. Many moons ago, I had a radio in the console and a separate power amp in the trunk that was connected directly to the battery. However, it was wired so that turning off the radio also turned off the power amp.

-Bryan