No Spark Situation / Magnetic Pickup Troubleshooting

[AlexD]

So my ‘80 FI Spider took its first ride on the back of a flatbed Friday night. I’d recently replaced the voltage regulator and coolant temp sensor and it was running well so I decided to take it to a charity golf outing I was playing in Friday afternoon. On that ride I learned two things: (1) the only way my clubs fit in the car is riding shotgun strapped in and (2) 4000rpm is the highway cruising “sweet spot” where the engine seemed the happiest. Was a great day until the return trip where it just cut off with no warning as I was getting off the exit ramp no more than 3 miles from home. Frustrated, bummed, (and a little pi$$ed off), I somehow locked my keys in the trunk when I grabbed my flashlight and toolkit so I opted to forego the troubleshooting at 9pm on the exit ramp and got a tow home.

Yesterday morning I started poking around and determined it was a no-spark issue. I started at the ignition coil and found that it was OK (had power, proper voltage, and resistance). The condenser checked out OK (showed increasing resistance), but when I disconnected the magnetic pickup plug I saw no resistance - tried about 5 separate times to be sure but zero resistsnce every time. Culprit identified (I think). This would be a new repair for me so I took off the distributor cap to see what might be involved. Didn’t remove anything but did wiggle the magnetic pickup wire a bit where it enters the distributor. Closed it up and was off to order some parts. Just for $hits and giggles, I decided to check the pickup plug one more time and saw resistance . Hooked the coil back up, checked for spark and saw that I now had spark (not super strong but strong enough). I tried to start it and it fired but ran rough.

So my questions to the group:

1. Could just a little wiggling have partially restored functionality/connectivity for the pickup? I’m still convinced that is the issue since I had no resistance and no spark but then had resistance and spark and plan on replacing it. I’m not sure however, if I there was another contributing factor I may have disturbed that I’m ignoring.

2. While I’m replacing the pickup, I’m thinking about replacing the condenser and the ignition control module since I’m pretty sure they’re both original. At minimum I’ll have spares on hand just in case. Is there anything else I should be considering at this point?

3. Is the magnetic pickup replacement something I can do with the distributor in situ or is it easier/recommended to do outside of the car? I know there’s a gap recommendation to address but am not sure if that’s easy enough to do as it sits.

Thanks in advance as always.

Alex

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Alex, my knowledge of the magnetic pickups is pretty poor, but since I'm already logged in to the forum, I'll just note that connectivity issues with this connector wire seem to be fairly common. Either the wire breaks, or it shorts to the distributor body.

And yes, these engines love to rev! They are very happy at 4000-5000 rpm all day, assuming there are no oil or fuel delivery/spark issues.

-Bryan

[tima01864]

I had an issue with the control module behind the coil, What you describe sounds similar.

[AlexD]

Alex, my knowledge of the magnetic pickups is pretty poor, but since I'm already logged in to the forum, I'll just note that connectivity issues with this connector wire seem to be fairly common. Either the wire breaks, or it shorts to the distributor body.

And yes, these engines love to rev! They are very happy at 4000-5000 rpm all day, assuming there are no oil or fuel delivery/spark issues.

-Bryan

Thanks, Bryan - The wire itself has seen better days - while not burned through, it's certainly had a run-in with the manifold heat shield. I was also wondering if there was a worn connection with the ignition module. As for the engine, it was nice to stretch the legs out for a bit. Above 4500 I noticed the temperature nudge a bit north of 200 and stay leaned that way. When I backed it down to 4000 it settled back down to around 190 and stayed steady. Love it that they like to rev & scream. I need to play with the exhaust a bit at some point to get a nice note.

I had an issue with the control module behind the coil, What you describe sounds similar.

I've heard others reference that as well and I was going to test that out too. Considering the pickup plugs into the ICM, I'm probably going to replace them both while I'm in there regardless. It's a $25 peace of mind swap-out (because my luck it'll crap out within the month anyway... ). Appreciate the insight.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Above 4500 I noticed the temperature nudge a bit north of 200 and stay leaned that way. When I backed it down to 4000 it settled back down to around 190 and stayed steady.

The 2L engines are a bit challenged in the cooling department. When everything is working as it should, they do OK, but given a few "challenges", the temperature tends to creep up. 200 oF isn't bad, so as long as things aren't boiling over, you should be OK.

There's an old saying in bicycling: "If you're too hot, you're not going fast enough. If you're too cold, you're not going fast enough." The same might apply to Fiats.

-Bryan

[AlexD]

There's an old saying in bicycling: "If you're too hot, you're not going fast enough. If you're too cold, you're not going fast enough." The same might apply to Fiats.

-Bryan

HA! Love it and probably true. Will be fun proving it right!

I took a closer look at the existing magnetic pickup in the distributor this morning now that I've zeroed in on that and sure enough one of the wires had a worn sheathing exposing the copper - no doubt was rubbing against the spindle even though it was coiled. I tried taping it as a temporary solution but as soon as I tried to uncoil it the wire going into the pickup came detached. Probably had been pulled/tugged/agitated enough to just give away. Surprised it was even running given how weak that wire is.

New one ordered first thing this morning along a new ignition module - will replace both this week and hopefully be back in action better than ever. Still need to find out if I can swap out the pickup without removing the distributor as I really don't want to mess around with the timing.

[davidbruce]

Alex you should have no problems changing the pick up with the distributor installed. You may have to bump the starter to get a straight shot at the mounting screws. They call for a non magnetic gauge to set the gap. I used a plastic guitar pick of the correct thickness but a bread bag closer or something similar of the correct thickness will work. The outboard condenser is just to cut down on radio interference . While you are in there you may want to test the vacuum diaphragm has not perished. It won't leave you stranded but will not operate as designed.

[AlexD]

Alex you should have no problems changing the pick up with the distributor installed. You may have to bump the starter to get a straight shot at the mounting screws. They call for a non magnetic gauge to set the gap. I used a plastic guitar pick of the correct thickness but a bread bag closer or something similar of the correct thickness will work. The outboard condenser is just to cut down on radio interference . While you are in there you may want to test the vacuum diaphragm has not perished. It won't leave you stranded but will not operate as designed.

Thanks, David - I think the "bump the starter" was the hint/advice I've been searching as I could see that getting to the mounting screws was going to be challenging without rotating a bit. I hadn't even considered just bumping the starter a bit. #stilllearning

I also just tested the vacuum pickup (pulled the vacuum line from the manifold and got no resistance when sucking in air) so will need to replace that also. It appears that the bracket for the advance housing attaches from the underside but I’ll see for sure when I remove the magnetic pickup.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't just pulling off the rotor give you the access you need to the mounting screws?

-Bryan

[davidbruce]

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't just pulling off the rotor give you the access you need to the mounting screws?

-Bryan

Bryan the advance weight plate and mechanism is still in the way under the rotor making it hard to get your screwdriver square on the screws.

Alex I think you will have to remove the distributor to replace the vacuum assembly. Before removing the distributor. Remove cap and take a sharpie or a paint pen and mark the top edge of the distributor housing in line with the tip of the rotor. Mark the base of the distributor where it goes into the engine(draw a line across the 2 housings. Remove the hold down clamp and slowly pull the distributor out. Watch how the rotor rotates ccw and how much as it comes out. You could even mark how far it rotates but it's not really necessary. After you replace the pick up and vacuum assembly you should be able to use the reference marks to reinstall it in the correct position. If the marks line up when it is seated then tighten it down if not just pull it out and rotate it in the appropriate direction and try again. It's still a good idea to check your timing with a light but this will be close enough to start it and check it.
While it's out check that the advance weights are clen and move freely and there isn't a bunch of oil in the housing. I would also change the o ring on the outside of the distributor housing and the base gasket while I had it out. Hope this helps.

[AlexD]

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't just pulling off the rotor give you the access you need to the mounting screws?

-Bryan

Bryan the advance weight plate and mechanism is still in the way under the rotor making it hard to get your screwdriver square on the screws.

Alex I think you will have to remove the distributor to replace the vacuum assembly. Before removing the distributor. Remove cap and take a sharpie or a paint pen and mark the top edge of the distributor housing in line with the tip of the rotor. Mark the base of the distributor where it goes into the engine(draw a line across the 2 housings. Remove the hold down clamp and slowly pull the distributor out. Watch how the rotor rotates ccw and how much as it comes out. You could even mark how far it rotates but it's not really necessary. After you replace the pick up and vacuum assembly you should be able to use the reference marks to reinstall it in the correct position. If the marks line up when it is seated then tighten it down if not just pull it out and rotate it in the appropriate direction and try again. It's still a good idea to check your timing with a light but this will be close enough to start it and check it.
While it's out check that the advance weights are clen and move freely and there isn't a bunch of oil in the housing. I would also change the o ring on the outside of the distributor housing and the base gasket while I had it out. Hope this helps.

Thanks, all, for the comments and input. This would be one of those "learn a lot pretty quickly" weeks as the distributor is new territory for me and something that I've found intimidating in general - more intimidating than necessary it seems after all the insight from this group and a few hours of Google and YouTube... I hadn't realized that with the proper attention to maintaining alignment, you can remove and replace the distributor without totally throwing off timing. With a lot more clarity and a little more confidence, I'll be pulling the dizzy this week to replace the pickup, vacuum advance, and clean up as much of the internal mechanisms as possible (weights, etc). Have new O-rings and base gasket on order as well since I'll have it out anyway.

Plus, as a bonus, I have a reason to buy a timing light - who doesn't welcome a justification to purchase a new tool?

Updates to follow - hoping to be back on the road before the weekend.

Alex

[tima01864]

I purchased a battery operated timing light, Less hassle

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Plus, as a bonus, I have a reason to buy a timing light - who doesn't welcome a justification to purchase a new tool?

Alex, hope I'm not too late with this advice, but one other thing to consider is a "dial back timing light". These allow you to set the timing light so that the light flashes when the timing marks are right at 0 degrees, which is usually much easier to see than the other marks. You then read the timing advance off the back of the timing light, either with a knob indicator or some even have a fancy digital screen. Pretty cool once you've used one.

Anyway, something to consider.

-Bryan

[Nut124]

I have replaced the ignition pickup lately as well.

I find that the wires are too long and want to interfere with the rotor, not good.

The way to overcome this is to twist the pickup several turns until the wires stay off the rotor. Take time to get this right.

And yes, I do concur with the recommendation of an adjustable advance timing light. Anyone who works on cars needs to have a timing light.

[AlexD]

So dizzy pulled, magnetic pickup replaced (with extra twists in the wires for clearance), vacuum advance was actually fine - arm and plate just needed to be cleaned and lubricated, cleaned up anything else I could. Replaced the o-ring and gasket and put in a new ignition module for good measure. Reinstalled dizzy with everything lining up to the orientation marks which took a few tries but eventually got there. Unfortunately car wouldn’t fire. Eventually got it to fire very weakly but enough to allow me to rotate the distributor which improved the idle - but I was twisting it a good amount (like more than 90*) which didn’t seem like it should be necessary.

In the “fiddling” that followed, I’m pretty sure I misaligned the rotor even more as I forgot that the orientation had changed from the original marks since the engine had run a bit. As it stands now, the car starts and idles OK but it misses when I give it throttle. At this point I think I need to just rotate the engine to TDC and then orient the rotor to #4 after which I’ll check the timing with the light (which is an adjustable advance light).

I’ll be honest though, I have no idea how you guys are checking and adjusting the ignition timing with the lights because I can’t get a good line of sight onto the pulley or reference marks at all between the coolant hoses and timing cover.