Window Regulator Woes

[SteinOnkel]

Hey guys,

so my window regulator failed. The cable started fraying. I ordered a new one and I'm pretty sure it's close to suffering the same fate already.

I was installing it according to the guides and when I went to get it over the adjustable pulley there was a pop and the stupid metal clip they ship with came undone. Brilliant. Now, I can adjust the pulley, but it barely takes any of the slack out.

The regulator makes a horrible crunching noise when you roll it up or down because the bottom cable (the one going to the adjustable pulley) makes contact with the brass guide on the regulator that the cable runs through. That can't be right.

Lastly when do you attach the actual cable to the window? Can't do it when it's all the way up or all the way down, so just willy nilly in the middle somewhere?

Such a stupid system. Most other cars I know use a worm gear. You bolt it in, attach the window and ta-da it works for decades completely maintenance free and without adjusting.

Any ideas are greatly appreciated. Maybe I just broke a $25 part >:( I can wind it up maybe three more times before the cable will start to fray again.

Thanks
Steiny

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Steiny, I feel your pain.

That being said, here's how I wind the window mechanism cable. Starting from the window crank handle mechanism, the cable coming from the top should be towards the center of the car and angled downward. The cable then passes by the adjustable pulley, and from there, to the lower rear pulley on the adjustable bracket at the bottom of the door. From there, the cable then goes up to the upper (near the window sill) rear pulley, then down to the forward pulley on the adjustable bracket, then up to the front pulley near the window sill. From there, the cable goes downward to the outer (towards outside of the car) side of the window crank mechanism.

OK, so get the above part working correctly before you attach the window. Once that is done, turn the window crank maybe one turn downward. Then put in the window, and attach the window to the two cables with the gaskets/grommets. Don't tighten too much or you can crack the glass. Tighten just a bit, and see if the window goes all the way up and down. Adjust the height of the window relative to the two cable if it doesn't. Then check again. Sometimes to get the tilt of the window right, you need to raise the rear relative to the front, or the other way around. You may also need to adjust the bottom and top stops for the window travel. The bottom stop is a single rubber bracket attached to the bottom of the door, and the top stops are two L-brackets attached to the grommets where the window glass attaches to the cable.

I'm sure this all makes perfect sense...

-Bryan

[SteinOnkel]

"That being said, here's how I wind the window mechanism cable. Starting from the window crank handle mechanism, the cable coming from the top should be towards the center of the car and angled downward."

Wait, what?

https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-1bhf1dj ... 13.jpg?c=2

The cable from the top should be going up not down?

The problem I have is the bottom cable coming up and over the bracket on the regulator and chafing there.

All very strange. It's not possible to bolt the regulator in backwards, is it? I'm going to start over tonight and see if I can figure this out.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Yes, I've seen that picture, but honestly I think it is just wrong. When I tried to route the cable the way this picture suggests, the cable was too long and the winder mechanism didn't work very well. One big caveat is that I am talking about my two early spiders ('69 and '71) and maybe the later ones were different?

The winder mechanism can only go in one way, as it has 3 studs and there is only one way that will fit in the door. And yes, the cable coming off the top of the winder drum (the roller with the grooves) starts out by going towards the bottom of the door, and the cable coming off the bottom of the drum heads off in the direction of the top forward idler pulley. The cable does not rub against the openings in the winder mechanism, but the cable from the adjustable pulley to the rear bottom idler pulley can rub against that bracket if it's not positioned right.

There should also be 4 complete turns of cable around the winder drum, if I'm remembering it correctly.

Once it's set up and aligned and lubricated, it works pretty well, but if not, you get that "crunchy" sound at either the bottom or the top of the window travel.

-Bryan

[SteinOnkel]

Screw this. And screw this whole platform with its shoddy documentation. I'm so done with it. Another $25 down the drain for a new winder mechanism ready for the bin. I spent 45 minutes trying to spool it back up - an impossible task. Then I thought screw it just bolt the damn thing in.

It actually worked about three times. I still don't get how I'm supposed to adjust this thing when the window has to be somewhere vague between up and down just so I can tighten the grommets on the glass. What moron designed this door? Why can't I attach the cable to the glass in the full up or full down position?

I suspect that the winder mechanism come shipped with that metal clip because that keeps in the magical position between up and down. Well, turns out, if that goes "pop" during installation, the whole spool unravels and you are screwed.

[wetminkey]

Sorry to see that you are having such trouble with this project, Steiny,...I can certainly relate! Different project(s), but,...
The diagram that you post a link to is nearly identical to the one in my Fiat Shop Manual, and it is specific to the '75-'82 Spiders. The 'adjustable pulley' (below the regulator) is show just a bit farther to the rear and higher, but the same, none the less. Cable routing is the same.
Steps are to bolt regulator to the door, cable over top front pulley, around front bottom pulley, over top rear pulley, around lower rear pulley, and "string cable on adjustable pulley last. NOTE: In order to provide more slack, loosen the lower support bar for the lower pulleys."
Then: "Tighten lower pulley support (if loose). Slightly tension adjustable pulley".
Then the metal clip is to be removed, and slack removed by tightening with the adjustable pulley. Lube.
At this point the window is to be reattached (it looks like the cables can be reattached with the window lowered enough to access the bottom frame through the large rectangular openings in the upper door sheetmetal,...).
Unfortunately,...there is a CAUTION to not remove the clip until the cable is in place around all pulleys, because it will cause the cable to unravel from the drum. It does not state what to do IF this happens,...so I would assume that it means that you need to contact your vendor - the clip should not have come loose.
I recognize the feelings of true despair that I have felt so many times before,...I sure do hope that this will help you! Best of luck, man!
Todd.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Steiny, if by chance you haven't totally given up on this, here's a couple thoughts: Todd may be on to something in that the winding is different prior to 1975 versus after, and that could explain some things*. Also, to untangle the cable from the regulator and get it lined up right, I clamp the regulator in a vise and carefully unwind the cable to its full length. I then have a friendly assistant hold one of the cable pulleys at the far end of the cable and then I operate the mechanism back and forth multiple times until the cable rides where it should in the grooved drum of the regulator.

When the regulator seems to be straightened out, I pinch the two cables together right as they come out of the regulator and secure it with a piece of masking tape. Then install the regulator and cable in the door, and remove the masking tape.

*Note that the door latch mounting location also changed in the mid 70s, so perhaps the two are connected.

If, on the other hand, you're more in the mood to run over the regulator a few times with your VW, that's an option, too.

-Bryan

[SteinOnkel]

If, on the other hand, you're more in the mood to run over the regulator a few times with your VW, that's an option, too.

-Bryan

As much as I want to I can't; I'm rebuilding the engine at the moment.

I will order a new regulator and give it another go. Just trying to sort out what other parts I need to order for all the other stuff. Car is about 75% of the way back together. This weekend hoping to install the trunk lid, fuel filler cap (with new badges ) and the roof.

[SteinOnkel]

Okay, so I'm back at this again.

The diagram is wrong - Bryan is right.

Regulator is in (what a horrible job - two hours). And it goes up and down. Makes some chafing noises somewhere; don't care.

The problem is that I don't understand how to adjust the glass. Is it supposed to be held in place with the front channel? And the rear just kind of flops around until you have the chrome trim, door panel etc back on? That's how it was on the passenger side...

The issue I have is that you bolt the window in one place and then you can move it 4 inches up or down and it pops out of the front channel. I've lowered and raised it on the cable twenty times, makes no difference.

Does this have to do with the position of the lower support bar? Surely there's a reason why you can move it inwards and outwards? Do I need to tighten up the adjustable pulley some more?

[spider2081]

Yes, I've seen that picture, but honestly I think it is just wrong.

I have a book of Fiat of "Service Letters" there is one dated 3-5-76 that shows diagram and describes window operation and regulator replacement. It shows top cable leaving regulator going down to the adjustment pulley.
I had scanned this service letter and sent it to Mirafiori but I just looked and could not find it there.
I don't know how to post it here from my "scan" folder.
anyone who would like a copy can email me: flyme194@gmail.com please put "window regulator" in subject

[18Fiatsandcounting]

The problem is that I don't understand how to adjust the glass.

I think part of the difficulty is simply that there are a bazillion different adjustments, all of which have to work in unison for the doors/windows to work right. Some examples: Door hinges, vent window position (forward/aft, up/down, tilt), spacers on the bottom bolt for the rear window channel and tilt for this, the bottom bracket with the 2 pulleys, the cable tension adjusting pulley, the bolts that hold the window glass to the cables, up/down stops for the glass travel, and I'm probably missing some.

OK. [Rant/Off]

Here's the order in which I usually do all this:
1. Remove the door panel card and outer chrome strip. Makes it easier to look down into the door to see if things are lined up.
2. Forgot about the window glass for the time being, and just get the regulator and cable mechanism and pulleys to work smoothly from one end to the other. This is easier to do with the window glass removed from the car.
3. Adjust the cable tension pulley so that the cable is firm but not super tight. It may actually be a bit loose at certain times as you wind the mechanism up and down, but this is OK as long as the cable doesn't jump off a pulley.
4. Install the rear window channel if it isn't already. The top is fixed, but put the bottom in the middle of its travel. Most spiders that I have worked on have a 1/4" spacer (thick washer) on that bottom bolt.
5. Put the window glass in, all the way down, and adjust the vent window position (and thus the front window channel) so that it solidly holds the window glass. By hand, move the window glass up and down to make sure it moves smoothly and doesn't bind.
6. Then loosely reconnect the bolts that hold the window glass to the 2 cables. I usually do this with the window 1/3 of the way down.
7 Adjust the bottom bracket so that the two pulleys seem lined up with the glass and nothing appears to be binding.
8. Fine tune the two bolts that hold the window to the cables so that the window has the right tilt forward to back, and tighten. Don't overtighten as you don't want to crack the glass.
9. Finally, adjust the upper and lower stop mechanisms so that the glass doesn't extend past the top of the vent window chrome triangle, and so the top edge of the glass doesn't drop below the metal frame of the door when the window is down.
10. Check that all bolts are tight.

-Bryan

[SteinOnkel]

Aha! GET F***ED, FIAT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRK9hFgIvrw

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Well, I had faith in you Steiny, even if the Fiat gods frowned upon you with their wrath. These windows can work pretty well when you get things adjusted right, but it's not always easy to find that sweet spot. But, good work and your window looks like it works better than mine.

As for the positioning of the bottom bracket, I never did quite figure out what is best. I try to position it so that the cables enter onto its pulleys as straight as possible, that is, the cable isn't entering the groove of the pulley at some odd angle. If anyone knows better, I'd love to hear that.

And now I'm famous on YouTube! Whoo-Hoo!

-Bryan

[SteinOnkel]

Well, I had faith in you Steiny, even if the Fiat gods frowned upon you with their wrath. These windows can work pretty well when you get things adjusted right, but it's not always easy to find that sweet spot. But, good work and your window looks like it works better than mine.

As for the positioning of the bottom bracket, I never did quite figure out what is best. I try to position it so that the cables enter onto its pulleys as straight as possible, that is, the cable isn't entering the groove of the pulley at some odd angle. If anyone knows better, I'd love to hear that.

And now I'm famous on YouTube! Whoo-Hoo!

-Bryan

I still argue that this adjustment is completely unnecessary. In 1982, a Fiat Spider cost 3x of what my Derby cost. And a lot of things on the Fiat are built so much better (Chrome plated aluminum heater controls, anyone?). I think Fiat could've done with a lot more "Keep it simple, stupid" - which the German engineers were forced to do because of cost constraints.

Here's the window regulator in my VW. I can swap that little bastard in 30 minutes. And there is nothing to adjust. Okay, Pos. 19 is a slotted fastener, but that's just for ease of install.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

I still argue that this adjustment is completely unnecessary.

Probably yes.

I think several factors are at play here:
1. The spiders were designed in the 1960s without the benefit of CAD/CAM, modern production tolerances, etc. And, since it was a convertible, there was more flex to the body than you'd see with a metal hardtop. As a result, Fiat build lots of adjustments into the design to allow the assembly line workers to get things to line up and work.

2. Fiat spiders were expensive for what you got. My '69 spider was $3400 new, and for that money, you could buy a big American land yacht with gobs of horsepower, A/C, interior room, leather, etc. In fact, I think the most you could spend on a car in 1969 was less than $8K, unless you went with exotic imports. So, given the price of a spider, there was little attempt to make it cheaper to build. That came later, especially when the Datsun 240Z was introduced. Which was 1969 but it took a few years to overcome the hesitancy to buy a Japanese car.

3. Fiat spiders were relatively low production builds. Roughly 10,000 per year on average, which is tiny compared to what American car manufacturers were doing. So, less incentive to increase efficiencies on the Fiat production line.

4. Many parts were done by hand, at least early on. Take a look at those plastic trim pieces on either side of your dashboard. Cut with an Xacto knife to fit. Same with the kickpanels in the footwell. Same with the screws that hold the wraparound cover for the convertible top "bow" in the rear. They screwed them in wherever, and sometimes they actually screwed into metal. Sometimes not.

You've probably heard the joke: In Heaven the cooks are French, the policemen are English, the mechanics are German, the lovers are Italian and the bankers are Swiss. In Hell the cooks are English, the policemen are German, the mechanics are French, the lovers are Swiss and the bankers are Italian.

-Bryan