Frame and cross member issues

[JayBird]

I started my front suspension rebuild on Monday. Everything came apart nicely but I found my cross member was loose. I was able to snug everything up and I figured I would do a final torque during reassembly. Later I noticed cracks in the bottom of the frame rails in the are around front mounting bolts on both the left and right side. This was definitely not in the suspension rebuild work plan.
My new plan has me supporting the engine and removing the cross member and thoroughly inspecting the frame and cross member in the bolting area. I'm hoping to be able to fabricate a metal doubler and weld it over the cracked area and then reinstall the cross member. Has anyone else had this type of issue?
I am currently supporting the front of the car with jack stands under the cross member. I am going to move the jack stands under the jacking points at the front of the rocker panels. Is there a better or safer way to support the car the I'm not aware of?
Also I'm not sure of the best way and safest way to support the engine before I remove the cross member. I would welcome any ideas or opinions on this problem.

Jay

[JohnMc]

Just thinking out loud I am wondering if you are going to need to pull the engine anyway to do everything that you want to do. it is not that terrible to do - and can be done with or without the tranny attached.
I hesitate to recommend using an engine hoist only to keep the engine elevated just on the off chance of having a hydraulic issue with the hoist itself and the engine coming down. To me it is like going under a car with only a hydraulic jack instead of jack stands.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

First off, this is a known problem with these spiders, not super common but it does happen. Search online for how to repair (this forum has some postings), and my guess is that it will involve welding new metal pieces to strengthen the frame rails.

I'm also guessing that you aren't able to fix this with the crossmember (and engine) in place? Might be worth talking to a body or frame shop that does this kind of work on a routine basis, to see what they recommend.

I'm also thinking that it might just be easier to pull the engine and transmission out of the car. Remove the hood (use 2 people to avoid damaging bodywork), electrical wires, fuel lines, coolant hoses, exhaust manifold connection, driveshaft donut, speedometer drive and any wires to the transmission, shifter knob assembly, and engine and transmission mounts (and I know I'm probably forgetting something).

As for supporting the car by the front jacking locations, that should be fine assuming your jack stands are robust. And if you do remove the engine and transmission, the car will actually be pretty light in the front. I once removed the engine, transmission, and front suspension from a Fiat and found that I could lift one side of the front by hand. Aaarrrrr....

-Bryan

[DieselSpider]

It used to be on MiraFiori as Courtney 124 Resto Frame Rail Repair however the link to it no longer works.

https://www.mirafiori.com/~courtney/124 ... erail.html

[JayBird]

I was able to support my motor with a motorcycle jack and remove my cross member, it actually was pretty smooth. I found cracks around all four of the lower mounting bolts and one bolt fell out. I'm planning on fabricating a metal piece and welding it to the frame over the damaged area. Has any one attempted a similar repair? Does anyone have a different approach? The material I have is .060" carbon steel which appears to be about the same thickness as the frame. I think that by regularly checking the torque on the cross member fasteners I should not have this issue again.
Now that the cross member is out I have a lot more room to remove my steering box. Has any one ever tried to remove the steering box through the space between the starter and the oil filter, it looks like there may be enough room with the cross member removed.
Does any one have an easy way to remove the top starter bolt?

Jay

[DieselSpider]

I was able to support my motor with a motorcycle jack and remove my cross member, it actually was pretty smooth. I found cracks around all four of the lower mounting bolts and one bolt fell out. I'm planning on fabricating a metal piece and welding it to the frame over the damaged area. Has any one attempted a similar repair? Does anyone have a different approach? The material I have is .060" carbon steel which appears to be about the same thickness as the frame. I think that by regularly checking the torque on the cross member fasteners I should not have this issue again.
Now that the cross member is out I have a lot more room to remove my steering box. Has any one ever tried to remove the steering box through the space between the starter and the oil filter, it looks like there may be enough room with the cross member removed.
Does any one have an easy way to remove the top starter bolt?

Jay

You usually do not weld over the frame in that area but cut out the damaged are and weld in the truss plate behind the damaged area and then weld a new plate in over that making it flush with the rest of the frame member. Otherwise you can cause an interference fit when you put the cross-member back in and end up spreading/bowing out the frame rails instead of pulling them in tight and locking them in place.

[Odoyle]

[Nanonevol]

Highly controversial I'm sure but I cut a hole in my floor for easy (easier) access to the starter and upper trans bolt.

[RRoller123]

Hey whatever works, that would sure make it easier!

[SteinOnkel]

There is a tool specifically used for supporting your engine in a case like this:

https://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lb-c ... 96524.html

[JayBird]

I've cut out the cracked areas, fabricated patches and had them welded in. I need to replace my brake booster, clean and paint a few parts and then I can reassemble my front end and steering.
A couple of other items have come up that I have to question.
One thing that I haven't found is a ground connection from the engine to the frame. Where should that be run? If I need to fabricate a ground what would be an appropriate wire gauge?
I'm replacing the hose between the crankcase breather and the FI manifold. What is the purpose of the armaflex type insulation covering the hose?
What type of connection is the radiator drain plug? Can the drain plug be replaced with a drain valve like older cars had on their radiators?
I 'm sure other things will pop up, thanks for your help.
Jay

[JohnMc]

My cars have always had a ground from the tranny to the first or second bolt holding in the starter. I also added a second large ground strap or cable from one of the large studs holding on the oil filter assembly to under one of the air horn studs. I think it is 4 g. Probably got from Summit.

[RRoller123]

I added a premade second strap too, from one of the existing studs where an AC compressor unit would be mounted, over to the sidewall. Auto Zone, Advance Auto Parts, etc has various lengths in stock.

[QuebecFiatSpider]

I was able to support my motor with a motorcycle jack and remove my cross member, it actually was pretty smooth. I found cracks around all four of the lower mounting bolts and one bolt fell out. I'm planning on fabricating a metal piece and welding it to the frame over the damaged area. Has any one attempted a similar repair? Does anyone have a different approach? The material I have is .060" carbon steel which appears to be about the same thickness as the frame. I think that by regularly checking the torque on the cross member fasteners I should not have this issue again.
Now that the cross member is out I have a lot more room to remove my steering box. Has any one ever tried to remove the steering box through the space between the starter and the oil filter, it looks like there may be enough room with the cross member removed.
Does any one have an easy way to remove the top starter bolt?

Jay

Hello there, I'm currently facing the same situation you were facing. When you wrote you supported the engine with a motorcycle lift (which I have one available), where exactly under the engine did you place the motorcycle lift?