'81 Spider Suspension Questions - Troubleshooting

[pleiades]

Hello,

First background:
My first spider was a 1980 model with ~100k miles
All stock suspension - handled pretty good from what I recall (sold it 10 years ago)

My current spider is a 1981 model with ~100k miles
It has in the last few thousand miles had the following items replaced:
Koni Shocks
Sport Springs (From IAP)
All tie rod ends & center steering link (+adjusted steering box)
Upper & Lower Ball Joints

Now, it has been 10 years since I drove my original spider, but I remember it handling really well, and not having much steering play. My current car had the shocks, springs & ball joints recently replaced when I bought it - I put all the new steering items listed above on there last week. (The tie rod ends were shot!) - The car is better with the new steering items, but it is still a bit loose feeling in the front and sometimes just doesn't seem to take well to direction change. The alignment is ~0deg toe, not exactly sure about camber, but looks roughly 0 deg. Any suggestions on what I'm missing here? One thing I have wondered about the front suspension geometry is the angle of the lower control arms. I noticed on the parts car I got yesterday - that with stock suspension, the lower control arm is almost flat across at static height, whereas on the slightly lowered car the wheel side of the lower control arm is pointed slightly up. I race a Subaru WRX, which is a single control arm strut car, which is a big no-no to have the lower control arm pointed up at the wheel side. Anyway - thoughts?

Thanks
Steven

[kristoj]

Have the control arm bushings and sway bar bushings been replaced? This can make a huge difference in how tight the front end feels.

[pleiades]

Have the control arm bushings and sway bar bushings been replaced? This can make a huge difference in how tight the front end feels.

Good question - and the answer is - not yet. I meant to put that in my original post. I have the control arm bushings here, ready to go it, and I just need to get sway-bar bushings. They are pretty dried and rough, but when I put the car on the lift last week I checked the flex of the lower arms anyway with a large prybar. The arms didn't move very much, so I doubt the bushings are completely dead, but I know that will restore some of the feel. Also, forgot to mention in my original post, I did a very good inspection of the subframe for cracks, and it actually looks in really good shape.

[mdrburchette]

Control arm bushings will help but after replacing the tie rods, centerlink and changing the ride height I'd be getting a front wheel alignment. It may also help to rotate the front tires to the back in case they have any wear. I bet a little toe in and negative camber will make a difference in handling. It did on mine.

[pleiades]

Speaking of alignment, where does one typically get the camber shims for the lower control arms?

[mdrburchette]

I took my 71 and the X19 to Sears for alignments. They had the shims and the specs were in the machine.

[pope]

Also check for play in the Idler arm and steering box, and make sure there is about 7oz. of oil in it. Play at that point can throw the tightness of steering off.

[kristoj]

Speaking of alignment, where does one typically get the camber shims for the lower control arms?

I just had mine done at a local Goodyear/Gemini store and they also had the shims.

[pleiades]

I typically handle my own alignments (in fact, I'm planning to do an string alignment jig for my Fiat, which should be pretty easy to mount given the bumpers) - so I'm mainly just looking for the shims. I guess I can just see about buying the shims from a normal alignment place.

Back to my other question from above though - does anyone know how the spider front suspension reacts to the lower control being higher at the wheel than at the crossmember mounting point?

[mdrburchette]

I don't know the answer to your question pertaining to your Spider but we took Ron's racecar to the track for testing yesterday. In between runs we changed to softer springs and a heavier swaybar. In doing so, it caused the ride height to be lower and changed the geometry of the suspension. One significant difference was the camber in his front wheels had changed. It also changed the handling, causing it to plow in the corners.

[pleiades]

I don't know the answer to your question pertaining to your Spider but we took Ron's racecar to the track for testing yesterday. In between runs we changed to softer springs and a heavier swaybar. In doing so, it caused the ride height to be lower and changed the geometry of the suspension. One significant difference was the camber in his front wheels had changed. It also changed the handling, causing it to plow in the corners.

I assume you lost camber (went positive)? Typically when lowering a car you get additional negative camber, but it seems as though the car would go positive when the outer side of the control arm goes higher than the inside.

Another thought I had today - When replacing the tie-rod ends and center link, I noticed that the left hand tie rod had to have the ends threaded all the way in, while the right side has them only about 1/2 way threaded in to center the wheel, have close to zero toe, and have equal turns of the wheel left and right to the stops.

[manoa matt]

How do you "change springs and a sway bar between runs"?? To change just the front springs would be a weekend job for me.

[manoa matt]

You can get those shims at almost any auto parts store. Look for that section that has all those miscellaneous "help" parts, the packaging is red. Should be about $5 for an assortment of different thicknesses.

[mdrburchette]

Yep, the camber went positive on the racecar. After replacing the bushings and ball joints on my 71, I had excessive negative camber on one side. The alignment shop did what they could to get both sides equal so I've still got a bit of negative camber.
Matt, the racecar has a cool setup. You remove two mounting bolts and the shock and spring just comes right out.

[pleiades]

Matt - Thanks for the advice on where to get the shims.

Burchette - care to share a picture of the suspension setup on the racecar?