dizzy springs

[FordPrefect]

Hey, still hunting down a no-start on my car and decided to check the centrifugal advance on my dual-point dizzy, and the springs look pretty shot. The weights don't return all the way back, and it's all pretty filthy.

So two questions:

1. any good source for springs will pretty much any dizzy springs work? these?

2. should I oil or grease the works down there?

[maytag]

bad springs will not cause a no-start. so let's address them separately.

advance springs come in varying lengths and rates, depending on their applications. If you believe yours are incorrect or worn-out, they should be replaced with the correct ones for your vehicle. OR have someone with the ability to plot the curve recommend a spring-rate for you.

as for the no-start, what have you tried? have you narrowed-it down to a spark issue?

[124JOE]

i have a 78
i used a chevy curve kit they sell at autozone and most auto stores
theres three sets of springs
open the pack and grab the smallest ones "throw the reat of the pack away"
and install them

[DocGraphics]

Here's a link to new distributor springs at Vick's, doesn't say exact application but a quick call to them should clear that up.
Don't know myself if they are different thru the years, anyone know?.

http://www.vickauto.com/newstore/index. ... ts_id=3650

[124JOE]

springs give you your curve
low end power vs higher and top end power

and loose SUCKS
because you cant set the timing

[FordPrefect]

bad springs will not cause a no-start. so let's address them separately.

advance springs come in varying lengths and rates, depending on their applications. If you believe yours are incorrect or worn-out, they should be replaced with the correct ones for your vehicle. OR have someone with the ability to plot the curve recommend a spring-rate for you.

as for the no-start, what have you tried? have you narrowed-it down to a spark issue?

I'm pretty much working my way through all the possible points of failure, and tidying up what I come across as I go. So while I'm hunting down the no-start I'm cleaning and lubricating all the bits I'm tearing into. I was afraid the springs might have too specific tensions to be easily replaced. Vicks has a set, and others recommend some GM replacements, I'm still not sure how vital accuracy is here, it's pretty important I guess?

Any advice on lubricating the various weights and plates in the advance mechanism?

As for the no-start, I'm completely at a loss. Some of the story is posted in other topics I've created here, but for a complete recap:

My car was running great, but had a slight ticking noise and noticeable oil leak. I pinpointed the leak location to the exhaust side cam-box gasket, which I replaced. I changed the timing belt at the same time.

The car ran great, but the ticking noise was still present. I drove all over the place, pleased with my self, but curious about the ticking. Weeks later the car sounded like a lawn mower and started losing power on acceleration and high RPMs.

It turned out the exhaust manifold was missing a nut from the stud under the dizzy, so I torqued down all the studs and nuts and put a new nut on where one was missing. This made the car quiet, but didn't fix the power problem. It sounded great but drove poorly.

So. I started going through looking for problems. I gave it a more thorough tune up: new distributor cap, points, condensers, fuel filter, new plugs, plug cables, new coil, set the timing, points gap, idle speed and mixture, and checked the fuses. One of the inline fuses was shot, (the one for the clock and courtesy light). When I replaced that, the clock started up ok, and the car started up fine. Then the car died, and I haven't been able to resuscitate it despite disconnecting that fuse.

The last few weeks I've been going back through, putting the old parts back on, playing with the timing (and rotating the dizzy to extremes), checking that fuel is pumping through the carb, double/triple checked the cam timing, compression test, idle solenoid check, float level check, carb screen, etc. to no avail. I have spark (wasn't sure if it was great spark, so I even ran a wire from the starter to the coil to bypass any failure in the ignition switch or passenger compartment, and sprayed carb cleaner down the carb to see if the fuel was inadequate, no dice).

I've started to possibly suspect the internals (valves or rings, possibly) since I don't really have any way of checking those. The carb doesn't seem to have much suction, but I'm not sure there would be much noticeable suction from just spinning the starter. Possibly the fuel vapor canister? Terrible fuel? Too much fuel?

I have all sorts of great resources from various sites, lots of manuals and diagrams from great people here, but so far nothing has seemed to work.

Here's a link to new distributor springs at Vick's, doesn't say exact application but a quick call to them should clear that up.
Don't know myself if they are different thru the years, anyone know?.

http://www.vickauto.com/newstore/index. ... ts_id=3650

Ah, thanks. It would be nice to know what difference the years/models make. It would also be nice if I could just pick some up at Autozone tomorrow (for cheap), but it may be worth it to have the right tension.

[maytag]

I was afraid the springs might have too specific tensions to be easily replaced. Vicks has a set, and others recommend some GM replacements, I'm still not sure how vital accuracy is here, it's pretty important I guess?

Yes, it's pretty important. the relationship between spring rate and weight will determine when the advance starts to come in, and how fast. and could ultimately determine how MUCH advance, if the springs outstrip the weights. they need to be correct. If someone has some evidence that the chevy ones are the same rate / length, great. but otherwise, it;s just random and has nothing to do with having the timing correct.

Any advice on lubricating the various weights and plates in the advance mechanism?

clean it very, very well. and then a little lithium grease would be good. very little.

My car was running great, but had a slight ticking noise and noticeable oil leak. I pinpointed the leak location to the exhaust side cam-box gasket, which I replaced. I changed the timing belt at the same time.

The car ran great, but the ticking noise was still present. I drove all over the place, pleased with my self, but curious about the ticking. Weeks later the car sounded like a lawn mower and started losing power on acceleration and high RPMs.

It turned out the exhaust manifold was missing a nut from the stud under the dizzy, so I torqued down all the studs and nuts and put a new nut on where one was missing. This made the car quiet, but didn't fix the power problem. It sounded great but drove poorly.

not enough information to be sure, but sounds like it COULD be a burned valve.

So. I started going through looking for problems. I gave it a more thorough tune up: new distributor cap, points, condensers, fuel filter, new plugs, plug cables, new coil, set the timing, points gap, idle speed and mixture, and checked the fuses. One of the inline fuses was shot, (the one for the clock and courtesy light). When I replaced that, the clock started up ok, and the car started up fine. Then the car died, and I haven't been able to resuscitate it despite disconnecting that fuse.

The last few weeks I've been going back through, putting the old parts back on, playing with the timing (and rotating the dizzy to extremes), checking that fuel is pumping through the carb, double/triple checked the cam timing, compression test, idle solenoid check, float level check, carb screen, etc. to no avail. I have spark (wasn't sure if it was great spark, so I even ran a wire from the starter to the coil to bypass any failure in the ignition switch or passenger compartment, and sprayed carb cleaner down the carb to see if the fuel was inadequate, no dice).

I've started to possibly suspect the internals (valves or rings, possibly) since I don't really have any way of checking those. The carb doesn't seem to have much suction, but I'm not sure there would be much noticeable suction from just spinning the starter. Possibly the fuel vapor canister? Terrible fuel? Too much fuel?

so, all of this above; it's just guessing. this is a sure way to get frustrated, as I'm sure I don't have to tell you.

what you could use is a more systematic approach to finding the problem. Address the basics, one thing at a time. remove accessories, instead of adding them. here's my rule of thumb: if it;s gos gas and it's got spark, and it;s got 'em both at the same time, it'll run.

Spraying carb cleaner in the carb? wrong idea. car won;t run on carb cleaner. you "could" try ether / starting fluid, but no need to yet.

How did you check spark? did you pull a plug out, ground it and see if you have spark when you crank it? if not, do so. it should be a blue / white spark, not much yellow.

have you made sure your rotor (in the dizzy) points to the correct plug at the correct time? If not, do so. When your #1 piston is at TDC (beginning of compression stroke) your rotor should be pointing at that plug wire. This ia also a goood time to check your cam timing ONE MORE TIME.

Do you have fuel to the carb? mechanical or electric fuel pump? when you push the throttle all the way down, do you see just a small amount of fuel squirt into the choke throat?

check all this stuff. report back.

[FordPrefect]

I was afraid the springs might have too specific tensions to be easily replaced. Vicks has a set, and others recommend some GM replacements, I'm still not sure how vital accuracy is here, it's pretty important I guess?

Yes, it's pretty important. the relationship between spring rate and weight will determine when the advance starts to come in, and how fast. and could ultimately determine how MUCH advance, if the springs outstrip the weights. they need to be correct. If someone has some evidence that the chevy ones are the same rate / length, great. but otherwise, it;s just random and has nothing to do with having the timing correct.

Any advice on lubricating the various weights and plates in the advance mechanism?

clean it very, very well. and then a little lithium grease would be good. very little.

My car was running great, but had a slight ticking noise and noticeable oil leak. I pinpointed the leak location to the exhaust side cam-box gasket, which I replaced. I changed the timing belt at the same time.

The car ran great, but the ticking noise was still present. I drove all over the place, pleased with my self, but curious about the ticking. Weeks later the car sounded like a lawn mower and started losing power on acceleration and high RPMs.

It turned out the exhaust manifold was missing a nut from the stud under the dizzy, so I torqued down all the studs and nuts and put a new nut on where one was missing. This made the car quiet, but didn't fix the power problem. It sounded great but drove poorly.

not enough information to be sure, but sounds like it COULD be a burned valve.

so, all of this above; it's just guessing. this is a sure way to get frustrated, as I'm sure I don't have to tell you.

what you could use is a more systematic approach to finding the problem. Address the basics, one thing at a time. remove accessories, instead of adding them. here's my rule of thumb: if it;s gos gas and it's got spark, and it;s got 'em both at the same time, it'll run.

Spraying carb cleaner in the carb? wrong idea. car won;t run on carb cleaner. you "could" try ether / starting fluid, but no need to yet.

How did you check spark? did you pull a plug out, ground it and see if you have spark when you crank it? if not, do so. it should be a blue / white spark, not much yellow.

have you made sure your rotor (in the dizzy) points to the correct plug at the correct time? If not, do so. When your #1 piston is at TDC (beginning of compression stroke) your rotor should be pointing at that plug wire. This ia also a goood time to check your cam timing ONE MORE TIME.

Do you have fuel to the carb? mechanical or electric fuel pump? when you push the throttle all the way down, do you see just a small amount of fuel squirt into the choke throat?

check all this stuff. report back.

Thanks for the advice on the springs and grease!

I've checked spark by grounding the plugs, it's a yellowish color. I'm pretty sure I've never seen it blue. When I get all the cam pulley marks lined up and the crank pulley is at 0 TDC, the rotor should point to #4, correct? Also, since the car ran great for days after replacing the timing belt, it should have been fine, right? Might it have jumped a tooth or stretched somehow? If so, one tooth wouldn't prevent it from starting, would it?

It's an electric fuel pump in the trunk, when I hit the gas it does squirt gas down the carb.

[FordPrefect]

One more question, I was able to pull part of the advance assembly up off the shaft of the distributor, but are the weights attached differently? Do I have to pull the whole distributor to properly clean and lube everything?

[124JOE]

no need to remove the dizzy for cleaning

your new condencer may be bad
try the old one for giggles

[FordPrefect]

I actually have the old condenser on there now.

[FordPrefect]

no need to remove the dizzy for cleaning

your new condencer may be bad
try the old one for giggles

Also, how can I remove the weights and stuff? I can get the top part off (whatever the weights are attached to by the springs), but weights and what appears to be a nylon? plate seem firmly attached to the shaft. I could just lube up what I can reach, but there is a lot of sticky debris under the weights and plate.

[124JOE]

my dizzy has holes in the bottom
carb cleaner then lubracate

[maytag]

I'm posting from my phone, so forgive me being short....

Have you checked voltage at the coil? And your points gap? If you have a weak spark, start in those places.

[majicwrench]

Probably nothing wrong with the current springs. Centrifical force takes up that loosness the moment you start the car.
Keith