All one problem or separate issues?

[tfitzgerald]

Hi guys,

I purchased a 81 Spider 2 years ago with the intent of selling it. I have a couple of old 60s Cadillacs and Fiats were not really my thing. After driving it once, I knew i was hooked. It is now a permanent part of the family. The car runs great but I am now starting to have problems with it not starting and it just dies randomly.

PROBLEM #1

The solenoid is engaging when i turn the key but the starter does not turn. I will turn the key a few more times and then the starter will turn. This is a new starter. This does not happen all the time but mostly when warmed up and at the most inconvenient times.

PROBLEM #2

This problem just started happening. The car will be at idle or highway speed and will just die. The time it happened on the highway, i had complete loss of power and it felt like i had cut the ignition by turning the key off. Then all of a sudden power kicked in again.

Sometimes when the car is idling, it will just die. It will start right up again though.

I thought initially fuel pump. When i turn the ignition on, the fuel pump goes on and stays on. Is this normal? Is there nothing that turns it off once it builds up pressure?

Thanks for anything you can help me out with.

Regards,
Todd

[rlux4]

The fuel pump should never run unless the engine is turning over, as in start or run mode. If your fuel pump runs when you turn the key on then the original power to it has been bypassed. There is a green with black stripe wire that goes from the dual relay down to the pump, you could check it and see if it's been tapped into, either by the dual relay or down by the pump. The correct wiring for the fuel pump to run goes through the dual relay and it gets a signal from the air flow meter when it is opened by incoming air. This system will shut off fuel flow if the engine stops, a safety feature designed to decrease the chance of fire in case of an accident.
Not just one problem could be causing your car to die suddenly. Check the condition of the wires at your magnetic pick up under the dist. cap, they can deteriate and cause intermittent problems. When I first got my car I had an intermittent no start or die suddenly problem. It turned out to be my inline fuse on the brown with white stripe wire that goes to the dual relay. It wasn't making a solid connectin through the fuse holder so I changed it out the the standard AGC type holder. You'll find this wire and fuse holder up behind the main fuse panel amongst the rat's nest of wires there.
Ron

[baltobernie]

The ignition switch on these cars is a known weak component. Part of the problem is that Fiat ran headlights and other circuits thru this switch, increasing the electrical load on the switch contacts. Both problems you describe are often traced to a worn ignition switch. To confirm Problem #2, next time it happens, as the engine starts to die, the tach will immediately go to zero, as if you turned off the ignition switch. Sometimes you can jiggle the ignition key while the engine is dying, and it will come back to life. Jiggling the ignition key while "waving around" the SUVs bearing down on you, shifting to a lower gear, looking for a place to put your coffee and cigar is known as the Fiat Shuffle

Sometimes the "cure" is worse than the "problem", as many (most?) of the ignitions switch assemblies now sold are Lada (Soviet-era Fiat) parts, and are either DOA or short-lived. Do a Search for "ignition switch rebuild" and "brown wire fix" to get some suggestions.

[Fiatspiderofpowell]

Question for rlux4:

My fuel pump runs whenever the key is turned in the ignition, regardless of whether or not there is air coming in through the AFM and the car is running.

Taking a look at my fuel pump, i notice that the green and black striped wire is disconnected, and the fuel pump is instead connected to a white wire and a ground wire through its only two terminals.

What the heck? If the green and black wire is so critical why are there only two terminals on the pump for me to attach the ground and white wires? Is the white wire not supposed to go to the pump?

Also the green striped wire has a screw connection, not a spade connection like what is needed to attach to the pump.

What is going on here?

-anton

[forzaphil]

The green and black wire is really important, but some previous owner has tampered with yours. Like Ron (rlux) was saying, they probably hotwired your fuel pump because they didn't know there was a hidden fuse hidden up inside the rats nest of wire under the instrument panel that had blown. Re-read Ron's post above on where to find it. Mine had the same problem, and it was just a blown fuse that I replaced and hasn't given me troubles since. If it's still not clear from Ron's post, do a search for "fuel pump in-line fuse" on this forum. It's amazing how much information is on this forum in all of the posts. If you ever have a question, try searching the forum first. I learned this after having asked a lot of questions on the forum that have already been answered many times over. oops. . Good luck and let us know if you have trouble finding that in-line fuse. It takes some acrobatics to invert yourself to get up under the dash. I prefer the legs up toward the headrest approach. Almost comfortable enough to nap in!

[rlux4]

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this, I work away from home and don't get to a computer until I get back. Anyway, the green with black stripe wire is critical only in that it is the original power supply to the fuel pump. It is de-energized when the motor is not turning over. Your car has had another power supply put on that is energized when your key is on, whether the engine is turning or not. This negates the purpose of the original wiring that is designed to shut off the fuel pump when the engine stops turning, primarily in an accident to avoid engine bay fires. The original wiring had a white with black strip wire for ground though, so in your case it's the other wire that is bringing 12V. If you were to trace it you'd find that it is tapped into a wire, probably behind the fuse panel, that is energized when the key is on. It also sounds like the original spade terminal on your green w/ black stripe wire has been altered. The three components that energize the fuel pump are (1) the inline fuse on the brown with black stripe wire behind the fuse panel, (2) the dual relay and (3) the contact that "makes" when the AFM flap moves open. Hopefully you have a 12V test light and can use this diagnostic to trace the problem that caused a PO to bypass the dual relay http://www.wcmotors.com/personal/Fiat%2 ... agnostics/
just go through it step by step and you'll find what's not working.
Ron