I think it is time to get rid of my Spider - either a pre-sale post or a plea for guidance on what to do with the car

[otter]

I think I should pass on my Spider. Sigh. But how?

I spent some time in the second garage that my Spider and my Sentra SE-R live in yesterday, and that seems to have pushed me over the edge. It's the body. None of the critical areas have any rust - front crossmember, front and rear shock towers - but I poked around on the floors more and the areas I knew about near the trailing arm mount (this is kinda important) and driveshaft bearing mount are more extensive than I realized - rather than localized patching it's going to have much of the right-side floor replaced to really do it right. And yesterday I discovered some perforation on the rear edge of the crossmember under the rear seat. So there is probably more hidden under that crossmember. On top of that there are the rocker covers (at least one is bad) and surely some repair on the rockers themselves (haven't pulled covers off), bubbling on the front edge of the hood, various lower body panels (two fender bottoms, a little bit on one door, rear valence), and the front valence and rear tulip panel (between decklid and top well) will have to be replaced.

The car needs a tune-up, timing belt / water pump service, driveshaft rebuild (U joints, bearing, giubo), front suspension bushings and probably a steering box rebuild (just fluid if I'm lucky), and some other stuff (brake rotors and soft lines, maybe flush the radiator, vacuum advance unit, distributor O-ring). The turbo system is good but the turbo will need another rebuild eventually (it was rebuilt in the early 90s) and I think there is a little warping on the exhaust manifold. Engine is sound, transmission leaks but is sound. This stuff doesn't bother me - It's just maintenance that an old car needs, and I've already got most of those parts, new in packages - bought them a few years ago but just haven't done anything on the car yet. I've chased down one driveability issue and am working on another.

However, I just don't want to deal with bodywork. I'd love to learn to weld and do bodywork, but I don't want it enough to give it the time it needs, and thereby take time away from other things I'd rather do, like drive my 911, work on the 911 and SE-R, ride my bikes, travel, etc. The car is by no means a basket case when it comes to rust - it's just more than I want to deal with. Paying a good body guy to replace/repair everything on the car and get to a body shell that can get a new paint job would probably cost at least a couple of grand and I just don't want to do that.

It is hard for me because this is a car that my (late) dad and I got (from the original owner, a friend of his) in about 1990 as a father-son project. But I have four cars, and I'd like to cut that down. As much as I love this car, between this and the SE-R I realized last year that I could get rid of this but I'd forever regret getting rid of the SE-R so that one stays. I'm keeping my appliance car for now, and the 911 is what changed the calculus - it's the car I've wanted since I was old enough to walk, and last year I finally bought one. If I didn't have that car, I'd be restoring this one. But damn, do I love driving my 911. I made a deal with myself when I started shopping for it that I would sell the Spider and once my SE-R was back on the road, sell my Appliancemobile. Bought 911, promptly broke deal. But I jhardly drive the Fiat much any more - I have a driving-optional life and don't commute by car, so I only drive when I feel like it, and can't really justify two just-for-fun cars. And I would love to not pay for a 2nd garage any more.

I'm not sure how best to sell the Spider, or what to do with it. The body shell is not a disaster - just more than I want to take on. The car could be parted out, but I think (or hope) it's too good for that. I'd rather it go as-is to somebody else. I could do the mechanical work and then sell it, but that seems a bit backwards when the bodywork is left undone. I'd love to see it go to somebody here.

Thoughts?!

David

Sigh.

[narfire]

Just my suggestion..... Might take a while but it does happen as I have a rust free shell but it does not have mechanicals...
Take a week or two and snoop about for a rust free shell or a car with a good body but suspect mechanicals. Play mix & match and before long you'll be driving the thing.
Chris

[Exit98]

Dave,

You already know "fix-me-up" Spiders don't sell for any money, no where near what you think its worth. And putting any money into it is money down the drain. Take some good pictures, write an honest description, and hope you get a reasonable offer and walk away. Craigslist and Auto Trader are probably the best bet. You didn't buy it for its investment potential and you've had your fun. Pass it on and cut your losses.

Good luck.

[otter]

Indeed, I know Spiders that need work aren't worth a lot of money. If I didn't have the rust, I would do everything mechanical it needed and then sell it that way (unless its goodness convinced me to keep it then ) and it would be worth something decent. I am ahead of most people financially because I never actually bought the car - it was given to my dad and me, he spent all the money on it for many years, and eventually just signed the title over to me.

As for doing a shell transplant, I have thought about that occasionally over recent years. I concluded that I would rather just have a nice-enough chrome-bumper car. And mine is a Turbo. I really enjoy the powertrain, but it's very different from something like a 1600. Feels like a torquey V6. If I started from scratch, I'd rather have the revs. And I just don't have enough time to devote to driving fun cars that aren't my practical car to justify owning two. Not that this stops me from constantly wanting 10. But I live in Chicago, and like it.

[ekstrandt]

Have you ever wanted to try welding? If so look at this link
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/show ... hp?t=53534

I did my car after reading this and it came out quite well. Start inside to "learn" how your new(?) welder works as any mistakes/ problems will be hidden by carpet. I did floor pans, quarter panels, door skin, patches around headlight and wheel arches over 2-3 months. Then only had to pay for final prep and paint.

If you have no desire to weld or fabricate metal than in my opinion it would be best to follow previous advice.

I would love (maybe kill for) a 80's porsche 911(turbo with a whale tail ).

[otter]

Thanks for that welding link.

I am of split feelings about this. I actually really would like to learn how to weld and do body repairs. This car would actually be a great candidate for that. But realistically, I know that this is a project that would take me years to complete, since I am not willing to give up things like driving my 911, going on lots of bike rides, working on my SE-R, traveling, etc. If I did not have to pay for storage for the car, this would not be an issue - I'd set it up somewhere long term, and work on it as time and desire allowed. But I do have to pay for storage for it, and I am not sure I really want to keep spending money on that.

[124JOE]

ok i know the value of sentamental ownership,and even thinking getting rid of your treasure is so difficult
and i also have too many vehicles 2 ford taurus 2 fiats and a kawasaki 600
i first drove my spider 1800 miles from reno"not alot of fun"having to stay at 55 mph
so it would do the trip home to WI. then all the time and money out into it making something truly
special to me and all who know me."ask any one i know"

if your looking for it to go to a good home let me know
just keep in mind i dont have alot of money.but i do have heart and sole."and a welder"

[spidernut]

I agree it is time to cut and run. Take lots and lots of pictures for your ad and describe the car in very good detail. Let someone else fix her up. Just hold onto the memories but don't hold onto the car.

[phaetn]

The car is by no means a basket case when it comes to rust - it's just more than I want to deal with. Paying a good body guy to replace/repair everything on the car and get to a body shell that can get a new paint job would probably cost at least a couple of grand and I just don't want to do that.

It is hard for me because this is a car that my (late) dad and I got (from the original owner, a friend of his) in about 1990 as a father-son project. But I have four cars, and I'd like to cut that down.

{snip}
Thoughts?!

I'm going to take a different view than spidernut: Call me a sentimentalist but I'd keep the car. If you can afford to have four cars, one of which is a 911, you can also afford $2k to get a car fixed. Is the 911 a Targa so at least you can enjoy the open air?

If the Spider was a father-son project from 20+ years ago it would be nice to keep. You say you don't have to commute. Maybe make the Spider more of an almost-daily driver or a grocery getter (in nice weather anyway!) and then think of your dad every time you're in it and enjoying yourself... Keep the 911 for track days or when you really feel like wringing the neck of a car... The joy of a 911, as a childhood idealization, may eventually fade, but you don't want the good memories with your dad to do so if you can help it.

When, for financial reasons or convenience, I've rid myself of motorcycles or cars that I really enjoyed or to which I was emotionally attached I've done nothing but regretted it years later; the money that seemed so important then just isn't any more. In this case, if it's something you actually worked on with your dad as a project, you'll never be able to get it back once it's gone...

I guess it depends on how much work is really needed. It sounds like the hesitation is more about the time involved and that you can't do the welding yourself than just the $. Pay someone to do it. Money is just money. Relationships and memories of important ones are worth a lot more, IMO.

Cheers,
phaetn

[mpollock]

The car has something going for it that's pretty much unobtanium as far as I can tell - a working turbo. You're getting into some serious work when you start talking about rebuilding structural parts of the car. If it were mine I think I would try to find a decent donor body to transplant the engine into, but you're right, you are probably looking at a couple grand if you fix all the little things, repaint, etc. even with a new body.

If you decide to sell, emphasize the turbo.

[otter]

I have wondered about the donor-body option. As a Turbo, is it really the same if it is all swapped into another VIN? Functionally, yes. I wonder why I even ask myself, since it's not like there is a VIN registry for these or anything. Just the parts, and the sticker on the cowl.

But the turbo system is all there, and it all works. The hose that runs back along the firewall was repaired using, I think, something from a Volvo Turbo when we fixed the car up in the 90s, since the parts were unobtanium even then.

If I could fix all the rust on the car for $2k, I'd probably do it. Then all it would need is paint, and as the car itself shows, I can drive a car with bad paint for years without really caring. Even my 911 has a years-ago 5-foot repaint in the original color, which I find liberating (I don't have to worry about it.) But $2k seems kinda low, even if I do the ripping-the-car-apart prep work myself.

[Redline]

Personally, I hate rust and I hate dealing with rust. I spent too many years in Canada flat on my back trying to stop it. It really never goes away unless you completely replace the panel, and what you see is just part of the project. I could fix mechanical things all day, but I would really have a hard time deciding what to do if I ever found some rust blooms on my old Coupe.

Only you can comment on the sentimental value of the Fiat, and the relative value of completing it compared to the value that remains with the memories of the project with your father.

From a purely objective standpoint, it seems like you have a lot of interests, so why not consolidate a bit and enjoy the extra time with your core interests? I used to do many sports, then finally decided nearly overnight to cut out canoeing, which was once a big part of my life, both competitively and for recreation. Sold my boats, thought I would have withdrawal (even sentimental attachment to the boats that had seen me through good and bad), but I just enjoyed all the great memories and put more energy into my cycling.

Is your 911 air-cooled? You could make a very simple financial argument that dollars and hours put into that are way more sensible than into a Fiat, but of course life is not all about money.

I can also understand the comment about the garage. I have two toy cars, and really think seriously about letting one go just because of renting a garage space. The cost is no problem; it just seems a bit complicated and wasteful to me. But I still sit on the fence, so I'm not suggesting what you should do, just thinking out loud.

[otter]

The difficulty in spotting in short order all the rust that is really there is one of the things that makes me, like you, shy away from dealing with it. Fixing the rust at the RHS trailing arm mount has already turned into replacing at least the rear half of the RHS floor, with some extra.

As far as the sentiment goes, I have been trying, over the last year or so, to learn how to modify my sentimentality so as to exercise it with greater utility for the present. It is not like this is the only thing I have that ties me to my dad, who died 10 years ago. I am wary of unconsciously making choices, like holding onto a car, for the sake of other people rather than for myself. Sometimes I imagine the end result I would like (e.g. restored Spider) and I read other peoples' stories, but then I remind myself that I could just buy one that as already right if I really wanted one, for a lot less effort.

Your point about core insterests is a good one, and one I have been cognizant of. I remember when my late maternal grandfather had to stop playing golf, something he'd enjoyed for decades. I thought he would miss it, or be sad not to be able to play any more, but he wasn't. He enjoyed it while he could, and then when he couldn't he did other things that he could do.

And yes, my 911 is air-cooled. It's an '81 SC Targa. For sure it is a better thing to spend time and money on from a financial standpoint, especially since I got a great deal on it. I could probably sell it next week for more than I paid for it, and it is about as guaranteed as such things get not to decrease in value.

Thanks for the thinking out loud