1.8 head on 2.0 block or 2.0 head + block w/ big pistons?

[ORFORD2004]

My friend was telling me that the easiest way to get going with a crank position sensor is to steal some parts from a 1.9L Escort.

The easiest way is Miller Mule for the crank pulley and the sensor.

[TimpanogosSlim]

My friend was telling me that the easiest way to get going with a crank position sensor is to steal some parts from a 1.9L Escort.

The easiest way is Miller Mule for the crank pulley and the sensor.

Perhaps my friend meant to say cheapest.

There's a reason they call him "Ghetto Dave". But he does in fact know what he is doing.

But it's nice to know that i can get a custom crank pulley, in case i do this whole megasquirt + supercharger thing.

[ClarkTheShark]

When people talk about grabbing parts of an escort, they are talking about using the ignition module and crank sensor. Those parts work in conjunction with Megasquirt. This is how mine is set up. The ford module controls Dwell, and sends a PIP(Profile ignition pickup or "engine position") and MS sends back a SAW (spark advance signal) back to the Ford unit based on your tuning parameters. The Ford EDIS system then directly tells the coils when to discharge. Another option available to you with newer versions of MS is have the ECU directly drive the coils independently. You don't get a big advantage to this, But with EDIS remember, its a "wasted spark" system. Everytime the piston goes up, the spark happens - so one is essentailly wasted. Some would say that's inefficient.

You still do all of your tuning from megasquirt - And the software has gotten pretty friggen awesome over the years. I have the tunability to install turbocharger or supercharger or nitrous or rocket pack and i could get it running correctly.

Megasquirt is something i would only recommend to someone who likes electronics and tuning though. It takes alot of work to get one running right.

[ORFORD2004]

You better check this:http://fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php ... &sk=t&sd=a

[garion]

In regards to my 'cheap megasquirt upgrade', I was thinking that the megasquirt would only control the throttle body/injectors. So the whole idea is this:

1. Megasquirt
2. Some throttle body that attaches to an existing intake, replacing the carb
3. TPS, mega has to know where the throttle is...
4. An O2 sensor to adjust the mixture as needed. Maybe a engine temp sensor?
5. Use the existing ignition system.

I think thats possible, but I haven't done the research. It avoids having to buy crank position sensors and the like, no new intake, and is easily reversible. There might be an even cheaper/simpler version of megaquirt that could handle just this.

Just my idle thought.

[FiatMac]

In regards to my 'cheap megasquirt upgrade', I was thinking that the megasquirt would only control the throttle body/injectors. So the whole idea is this:

1. Megasquirt
2. Some throttle body that attaches to an existing intake, replacing the carb
3. TPS, mega has to know where the throttle is...
4. An O2 sensor to adjust the mixture as needed. Maybe a engine temp sensor?
5. Use the existing ignition system.

I think thats possible, but I haven't done the research. It avoids having to buy crank position sensors and the like, no new intake, and is easily reversible. There might be an even cheaper/simpler version of megaquirt that could handle just this.

Just my idle thought.

John,
Go to DIY Autotune's website http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_article ... iteups.htm. There is a writeup here for just this type of conversion on a '77 Chevy Nova.

[TimpanogosSlim]

When people talk about grabbing parts of an escort, they are talking about using the ignition module and crank sensor. Those parts work in conjunction with Megasquirt. This is how mine is set up. The ford module controls Dwell, and sends a PIP(Profile ignition pickup or "engine position") and MS sends back a SAW (spark advance signal) back to the Ford unit based on your tuning parameters. The Ford EDIS system then directly tells the coils when to discharge. Another option available to you with newer versions of MS is have the ECU directly drive the coils independently. You don't get a big advantage to this, But with EDIS remember, its a "wasted spark" system. Everytime the piston goes up, the spark happens - so one is essentailly wasted. Some would say that's inefficient.

You still do all of your tuning from megasquirt - And the software has gotten pretty friggen awesome over the years. I have the tunability to install turbocharger or supercharger or nitrous or rocket pack and i could get it running correctly.

Megasquirt is something i would only recommend to someone who likes electronics and tuning though. It takes alot of work to get one running right.

Ah, that makes sense. I think my friend may have said something about bolting or tacking the trigger wheel to the crank pulley, too. But i'm dreaming of a car with air conditioning and a supercharger and megasquirt, so it's looking more and more like a custom crank pulley.

And yeah, I like electronics. And i'd like to learn tuning. And i know people who would be willing to help me learn it.

Learning jetronic just sounds like a lot of work for no awesome. I have friends who battle it on old Audis and i don't envy them.

[bradartigue]

Well the original Bosch system can't be tuned at all, so if you want to fiddle mega squirt is a great way to go. There is nothing mysterious about the fiat motor - it's very flexible. We can mount about 20 different carbs on it, turbo it, supercharge it, all without removing the head. But don't discount the Bosch system - it is quite effective.

[TimpanogosSlim]

Well the original Bosch system can't be tuned at all, so if you want to fiddle mega squirt is a great way to go. There is nothing mysterious about the fiat motor - it's very flexible. We can mount about 20 different carbs on it, turbo it, supercharge it, all without removing the head. But don't discount the Bosch system - it is quite effective.

It can probably be tuned by reprogramming - the similar systems used by vw/audi have chips available from various vendors.

But dumping the code, figuring out how it works, etc, no thanks.

I'm not saying it doesn't work well. I'm saying that it's peak performance is a target i am not interested in.

[bradartigue]

Well the original Bosch system can't be tuned at all, so if you want to fiddle mega squirt is a great way to go. There is nothing mysterious about the fiat motor - it's very flexible. We can mount about 20 different carbs on it, turbo it, supercharge it, all without removing the head. But don't discount the Bosch system - it is quite effective.

It can probably be tuned by reprogramming - the similar systems used by vw/audi have chips available from various vendors.

But dumping the code, figuring out how it works, etc, no thanks.

I'm not saying it doesn't work well. I'm saying that it's peak performance is a target i am not interested in.

Sorry but L-Jetronic doesn't have any code - not on a FIAT, Alfa, Audi, VW, Porsche, BMW, or anything else it was installed in. There is no computer - it is a solid state system. Define what you mean by "peak performance" in the first place and maybe folks can help you reach that goal.

[TimpanogosSlim]

To what end? I don't have the control circuitry or the air meter, and don't intend to acquire or install them.

[bradartigue]

To what end? I don't have the control circuitry or the air meter, and don't intend to acquire or install them.

From reading through this thread you might just end up with a working car. I'm not trying to be insulting, but you've made a bunch of very incorrect assumptions about the Spider's engine in this thread, and from those you jump to megasquirt as your solution. Not just your solution, but the place at which you intend to start learning.

As I said, it's achievable, but you have to decide what performance means to you. Sounds like it just means acceleration, and you don't need much to achieve balls-out speed. Certainly not megasquirt.

[TimpanogosSlim]

140-150bhp, 140-150 ft/lb torque.

Is it so wrong that I look at megasquirt as something i'd like to learn, and l-jet as an exercise in anachronism that does not excite me?

When i went to the yard to pull the 2.0 block, my intention was to pair it with an 1800 head and a some dual 40's i already have.

The sole reason i bought the 2.0 FI head, intake manifold, and throttle body was the dream of a forced-induction build that i could use as a learning platform.

[Kevin1]

140-150bhp, 140-150 ft/lb torque.
Is it so wrong that I look at megasquirt as something i'd like to learn, and l-jet as an exercise in anachronism that does not excite me?

Your stated goals are achievable, and have been achieved , with the twin cam. No problem there. I think where the difference comes in is the approach taken to get there. I see what you are saying about L-jet. It is very reliable, easy to implement, easy to maintain, but... it is also very inflexible when it comes to tuning because it lacks programmability. That really limits it.

So I see where you are heading with Megasquirt. There are plenty of proven ways to get that kind of power so I have no doubt you can do it, carbed or FI. I am also always interested in seeing people try new ways around old problems. The flexibility of the basic TC is a blessing as it leaves a lot open to interpretation when it comes to "hot rodding" it.

So I say go for it. Just keep posting about your project as it evolves. You will get plenty of good advise here which you can sort through to pick and choose what you apply to your car. aIt will be interesting to hear about what you come up with. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

[TimpanogosSlim]

basically i see 3 limitations to L-Jet with regard to forced induction.

1: Vane air meter will be wide open at full throttle, very likely causing a lean running condition.

2: No dynamic control of ignition timing, likely leading to a knocking problem

3: No knock sensors, not that there was a way to intelligently retard timing anyway.

1 and 2 have potential work-arounds, but the add-on solutions -- things like a 5th injector in the intake plenum with it's own method of control -- get silly.

Right now i have a '77 124 with a running 1756cc long block that has a rebuilt-last-year 32/36dfev and needs new brakes and tires and could use some suspension and body work.

I also have a 1995 efi long block complete with intake manifold, throttle body, fuel rail, and injectors, and another 1756 head, and a pair of 40idf carbs w/ linkage and intake manifold in need of rebuild.

The immediate plan remains to get the '77 on the road with the drivetrain it currently has in it, improve it's roadworthiness, and slowly assemble . . . something.

Last year i bought an '84 jetta coupe 1.6D in a non-running state. It runs and drives now. I kept the block, rods, crank, pulleys, water pump, and plumbing fixtures. Pretty much everything else has been replaced and it is now a 1.6TD with a 1.9TD head (because it breathes better and i needed a new head anyway). That was my first engine build and i learned an awful lot and gained a lot of confidence in my ability.

If i wanted to drive a fiat with a perfectly good naturally aspirated 2L engine, I'd buy a spider 2000. Driving a spider 2000 is not the objective.