All I can say is WOW!!
- seabeelt
- Patron 2019
- Posts: 1614
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:22 pm
- Your car is a: Fiat Spider - 1971 BS1
- Location: Tiverton, RI
All I can say is WOW!!
Finally had a chance to install the 40 IDFs that I got from Ralph a couple years ago (has it really been that long??).
The whole process started with having to replace the master cylinder..... insert scope creep. Sooooo. take the booster off, clean that up, respray with the kit from Eastwood, attach the masterclyinder to the booster (more on that later)
My son is home from grad school before his move to San Fancisco this coming Friday. (He is making the cross country road trip with his 79). He sees me out in the garage and says Dad, those dual webers have to get on that car .
And so the install begins. Remove the old carb and cables, drain the radiator, take off the old manifiold, scrape the intake surface clean and test fit the new manifold and carb. It doesn' fit WHAT I have all of this room without the booster and MC, how can this be. Head scratching... ah HA, The new computronics ignition is in the way. So mark its position (not that its hard to reset anyway), slip the carbs on with the gasket, hand tighten the nuts on the studs and start to reinstal the computronics. WTF it wont go back into the hole all the way The manifold is in the way. HMMMMMMM. how the heck is this going to go on the car. More head scratching. What if"i say to myself" I remove the manifold, remove the manifold studs, slip the stud ( one closest to the front of the car) into the manifold, slip that past the computronics, and hand thread the stud back into the head. So, now take out all of the studs, clean the holes so that the studs can be hand threaded back into the head and put that baby on there.
Eureka It works. Now problem number two. All of the wisdom of the forum as well as other sources, says ( if you dont have an original waffle manifold like other eary 70's cars with the dual carb setup) to use a later year aka 78 cam mounted cable setup and use a 78 is gas pedal. New cam cover has been painted with cleaned and painted spring linkage along with cleanded and painted gas pedal for just this moment. Mount the cam cover.. sweet.. take the old gas pedal out, contort my big frame under the steering colum only to find out that after I have cajoled the gas pedal into position over the steering column, that the cable pull arm will not fit due to the huge glob ow wires that penetrate the fire wall at that exact location. ARG!!! and a bunch of other swear words. Son is concerned, he thinks I'm stuck under the steering wheel
More head scratching. Look at more forum examples of installs. Use the old gas pedal but cut the lower arm off. OK, I remove the old lower arm ( but so it can go back on later if need be) because it hits the bloomin manifold. Fabricate a cable pull arm at the end of the existing pivot linkage, fabricate a cable hold ring to mount to the carb. weld arm onto the linkage, test fit. YAHOOO. Some minor refab for the cable hold bracket and we are in business. Test fit again. Works great..... wait for it.... wait for it.. except that the cable only opens the carbs to about 85 degrees, not 90. HMMMM . Pull arm needs to be just a tad longer. Hindsight I should have measured the one off of the 78 gas pedal ( In my defense others have used the throttle arm for their same linkage, so I makde the second arm the same length and it fits nicely between the carb and the booster). I will fix that later.
Now the carbs have been set up exactly as per the 1970 specs. connect the fuel lines, connect the linkage. (had to fab a length of rod to go from the cam linkage arm to the carbs and reuse the linkage ends off of the old single carb - (5 min with the handy tap and die set and blak rod from ACE hardware) Crank the starter. sputter sputter. Tweak comutronics a couple of degrees. Crank again. VAROOOM.
Disconnect the linkage and measure the air flow with the sync meter. 1&2 pull the same 3&$ pull the same but are off from 1&2, Adjust the mating screw until they are both the same. Adjust the Idle screw down to 850, check again with the sync meter. All 4 are pulling 3.5 on the meter. Check the timing, dead on at 10deg BTDC. Didnt touch another thing on the set up. A good. day indeed.
Now fight and I do mean fight to get the booster back in place. Took the MC off so as not to leak fluid from the bench bleed even though the plugs were in place. Booster finally in, MC back on, lines connected, brakes bled. Soft pedal. Thats another story.
Take her for a spin. OMFG Winds the Tach up super quick and chirps the tires quite well in second with my back pressed against the back of the seat the whole time. I dont think I have wiped my smile from my face even yet Can't imagine what that other 5 deg to get WOT is gonna be like....
The whole process started with having to replace the master cylinder..... insert scope creep. Sooooo. take the booster off, clean that up, respray with the kit from Eastwood, attach the masterclyinder to the booster (more on that later)
My son is home from grad school before his move to San Fancisco this coming Friday. (He is making the cross country road trip with his 79). He sees me out in the garage and says Dad, those dual webers have to get on that car .
And so the install begins. Remove the old carb and cables, drain the radiator, take off the old manifiold, scrape the intake surface clean and test fit the new manifold and carb. It doesn' fit WHAT I have all of this room without the booster and MC, how can this be. Head scratching... ah HA, The new computronics ignition is in the way. So mark its position (not that its hard to reset anyway), slip the carbs on with the gasket, hand tighten the nuts on the studs and start to reinstal the computronics. WTF it wont go back into the hole all the way The manifold is in the way. HMMMMMMM. how the heck is this going to go on the car. More head scratching. What if"i say to myself" I remove the manifold, remove the manifold studs, slip the stud ( one closest to the front of the car) into the manifold, slip that past the computronics, and hand thread the stud back into the head. So, now take out all of the studs, clean the holes so that the studs can be hand threaded back into the head and put that baby on there.
Eureka It works. Now problem number two. All of the wisdom of the forum as well as other sources, says ( if you dont have an original waffle manifold like other eary 70's cars with the dual carb setup) to use a later year aka 78 cam mounted cable setup and use a 78 is gas pedal. New cam cover has been painted with cleaned and painted spring linkage along with cleanded and painted gas pedal for just this moment. Mount the cam cover.. sweet.. take the old gas pedal out, contort my big frame under the steering colum only to find out that after I have cajoled the gas pedal into position over the steering column, that the cable pull arm will not fit due to the huge glob ow wires that penetrate the fire wall at that exact location. ARG!!! and a bunch of other swear words. Son is concerned, he thinks I'm stuck under the steering wheel
More head scratching. Look at more forum examples of installs. Use the old gas pedal but cut the lower arm off. OK, I remove the old lower arm ( but so it can go back on later if need be) because it hits the bloomin manifold. Fabricate a cable pull arm at the end of the existing pivot linkage, fabricate a cable hold ring to mount to the carb. weld arm onto the linkage, test fit. YAHOOO. Some minor refab for the cable hold bracket and we are in business. Test fit again. Works great..... wait for it.... wait for it.. except that the cable only opens the carbs to about 85 degrees, not 90. HMMMM . Pull arm needs to be just a tad longer. Hindsight I should have measured the one off of the 78 gas pedal ( In my defense others have used the throttle arm for their same linkage, so I makde the second arm the same length and it fits nicely between the carb and the booster). I will fix that later.
Now the carbs have been set up exactly as per the 1970 specs. connect the fuel lines, connect the linkage. (had to fab a length of rod to go from the cam linkage arm to the carbs and reuse the linkage ends off of the old single carb - (5 min with the handy tap and die set and blak rod from ACE hardware) Crank the starter. sputter sputter. Tweak comutronics a couple of degrees. Crank again. VAROOOM.
Disconnect the linkage and measure the air flow with the sync meter. 1&2 pull the same 3&$ pull the same but are off from 1&2, Adjust the mating screw until they are both the same. Adjust the Idle screw down to 850, check again with the sync meter. All 4 are pulling 3.5 on the meter. Check the timing, dead on at 10deg BTDC. Didnt touch another thing on the set up. A good. day indeed.
Now fight and I do mean fight to get the booster back in place. Took the MC off so as not to leak fluid from the bench bleed even though the plugs were in place. Booster finally in, MC back on, lines connected, brakes bled. Soft pedal. Thats another story.
Take her for a spin. OMFG Winds the Tach up super quick and chirps the tires quite well in second with my back pressed against the back of the seat the whole time. I dont think I have wiped my smile from my face even yet Can't imagine what that other 5 deg to get WOT is gonna be like....
Michael and Deborah Williamson
1971 Spider -Tropie’ - w screaming IDFs
1971 Spider - Vesper -scrapped
1979 Spider - Seraphina - our son's car now sold
1972 Spider - Tortellini- our son's current
1971 Spider -Tropie’ - w screaming IDFs
1971 Spider - Vesper -scrapped
1979 Spider - Seraphina - our son's car now sold
1972 Spider - Tortellini- our son's current
- engineerted
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:57 pm
- Your car is a: 1974 124 spider
- Location: Farmington Hills, MI
Re: All I can say is WOW!!
Welcome to the club! What engine did you install these on? You said you set them up per 70's spec's?
Ted
Ted
Ted
1978 124 Spider, Complete Restoration
1974 Fiat 124 F Production Race car
1978 124 Spider, Complete Restoration
1974 Fiat 124 F Production Race car
- seabeelt
- Patron 2019
- Posts: 1614
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:22 pm
- Your car is a: Fiat Spider - 1971 BS1
- Location: Tiverton, RI
Re: All I can say is WOW!!
Ted, it's the OEM Specs in Brad's write-up 32 mm choke, 125 main jet, 210 air corrector, .55 idle jet, and they are on a 1600.
I used the SK synchrometer . The mix screws are at 1.5 turns each and I didn't have to touch the air bleed screws. I haven't monkied with trying to really fine tweak them. The car seemed to scream just the way they were. Smooth acceleration even if I really mash on the gas pedal and pulled strong and quick all the way up to the red line.
R/
I used the SK synchrometer . The mix screws are at 1.5 turns each and I didn't have to touch the air bleed screws. I haven't monkied with trying to really fine tweak them. The car seemed to scream just the way they were. Smooth acceleration even if I really mash on the gas pedal and pulled strong and quick all the way up to the red line.
R/
Michael and Deborah Williamson
1971 Spider -Tropie’ - w screaming IDFs
1971 Spider - Vesper -scrapped
1979 Spider - Seraphina - our son's car now sold
1972 Spider - Tortellini- our son's current
1971 Spider -Tropie’ - w screaming IDFs
1971 Spider - Vesper -scrapped
1979 Spider - Seraphina - our son's car now sold
1972 Spider - Tortellini- our son's current
Re: All I can say is WOW!!
That's a great write up Michael!!
I can just picture the unending grin!!
Nice work!
I can just picture the unending grin!!
Nice work!
Re: All I can say is WOW!!
I am trying to do similar, remove the FI that was on the car and replace with 40's. The manifold I have doesn't fit however as it hits up against the servo. Any advice / views on the right manifold?
- RoyBatty
- Posts: 852
- Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:44 pm
- Your car is a: 1975 124 Spider - 1971 124 Sport Coupe
- Location: Locust Grove, VA
Re: All I can say is WOW!!
Still lovin mine.
The sound and the power....just so much fun.
- seabeelt
- Patron 2019
- Posts: 1614
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:22 pm
- Your car is a: Fiat Spider - 1971 BS1
- Location: Tiverton, RI
Re: All I can say is WOW!!
Thanks, all I need to do now is reattach the throttle cable to its lever and run the choke. It's a little rough to start after it's been sitting for a while but fires right up when it's warm.
Photos coming soon
Mathew, what manifold do you have?. I'm not sure of the brand on mine, but it looks very similar to Mark Allison's
R/
Photos coming soon
Mathew, what manifold do you have?. I'm not sure of the brand on mine, but it looks very similar to Mark Allison's
R/
Michael and Deborah Williamson
1971 Spider -Tropie’ - w screaming IDFs
1971 Spider - Vesper -scrapped
1979 Spider - Seraphina - our son's car now sold
1972 Spider - Tortellini- our son's current
1971 Spider -Tropie’ - w screaming IDFs
1971 Spider - Vesper -scrapped
1979 Spider - Seraphina - our son's car now sold
1972 Spider - Tortellini- our son's current
- seabeelt
- Patron 2019
- Posts: 1614
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:22 pm
- Your car is a: Fiat Spider - 1971 BS1
- Location: Tiverton, RI
Re: All I can say is WOW!!
Well now that the brakes are fixed - darned acorn nut , I have had a real chance to run the car some. I was getting a little back fire through one of the carbs, so I pulled the plugs to use as an indicator of lean/rich conditions. Number 1was white-ish with just a very slight tan haze on one side of the plug. Numbers 2 and 3 were sooty so definitely running rich, number 4 was slightly sooty and has a very tan copper color. Sooo back to do some fine tuning. I used Brad's tuning guide and tweaked the air bleeds and mixture screws slightly. Now for certain I can absolutely say all 4 venturis are pulling the same amount of air as exact as I can get them and have run the mix screws in and out to try and find a sweet spot.. While listening to and watching the sync meter, it sounded as if number 2 had a slight knocking sound as compared to the rest of the cylinders. I may have to pull the valve covers to check the shims -though it has less than 3k miles on it since BEEK redid the head for me. Screwdriver to the ear seems like its on the exhaust side. Hope I'm not being too fussy. I will recheck the plugs in a week or so and see how they look. Even with the occasional carb backfire, it is so much more fun to drive
Michael and Deborah Williamson
1971 Spider -Tropie’ - w screaming IDFs
1971 Spider - Vesper -scrapped
1979 Spider - Seraphina - our son's car now sold
1972 Spider - Tortellini- our son's current
1971 Spider -Tropie’ - w screaming IDFs
1971 Spider - Vesper -scrapped
1979 Spider - Seraphina - our son's car now sold
1972 Spider - Tortellini- our son's current
- seabeelt
- Patron 2019
- Posts: 1614
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:22 pm
- Your car is a: Fiat Spider - 1971 BS1
- Location: Tiverton, RI
Re: All I can say is WOW!!
Well, I have run another tank of gas through her and and I'm still getting a back fire on number 2 I think through the carb.I change the plugs to new nkg iridiums with on improvement. Pulled the exhaust can cover and I can see the lobe of number 2 is chipped, but I think BEEK had mentioned that when he did the head. I think the shims have settled some as all were .016 and.015 (#2). Not bad,but will need to be redone soon. I will check the intake side tomorrow. I may pull the timing belt.cover just to check to make sure I have t skipped a tooth one one of the pulleys. Number 2 is definitely noisier than the rest. Hope I don't have a sticking intake valve.
Michael and Deborah Williamson
1971 Spider -Tropie’ - w screaming IDFs
1971 Spider - Vesper -scrapped
1979 Spider - Seraphina - our son's car now sold
1972 Spider - Tortellini- our son's current
1971 Spider -Tropie’ - w screaming IDFs
1971 Spider - Vesper -scrapped
1979 Spider - Seraphina - our son's car now sold
1972 Spider - Tortellini- our son's current
Re: All I can say is WOW!!
Would a fuel injected 1980 2.0 respond as well to a swap for the downdrafts? I've gotten the impression that the F.I. actually feeds the engine pretty well and a carb conversion would not yield much in the way of power gains by itself. T/F ?
-
- Posts: 3959
- Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 2:14 am
- Your car is a: 1980 124 spider
- Location: Naramata B.C.
Re: All I can say is WOW!!
Would a fuel injected 1980 2.0 respond as well to a swap for the downdrafts?
I don't know if it would be worth it. One can add a few things to the stock FI engine that will give it more pull. Mark's cams with the adjustable cam wheels for example.
Reading here, the IDF's can be a bit fiddly, especially if like me a neophyte with the IDF's. FI is pretty easy.
I'd get another car and try putting the 44 IDF's on that engine..
I don't know if it would be worth it. One can add a few things to the stock FI engine that will give it more pull. Mark's cams with the adjustable cam wheels for example.
Reading here, the IDF's can be a bit fiddly, especially if like me a neophyte with the IDF's. FI is pretty easy.
I'd get another car and try putting the 44 IDF's on that engine..
80 FI spider
72 work in progress
2017 Golf R ( APR Stg. 1)
2018 F350 crew long box
72 work in progress
2017 Golf R ( APR Stg. 1)
2018 F350 crew long box
- divace73
- Posts: 1380
- Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:59 am
- Your car is a: 1980 Fiat 124 Spider Silver
- Location: Sydney, Australia
Re: All I can say is WOW!!
I started writing this before but somehow managed to lose it??narfire wrote:Would a fuel injected 1980 2.0 respond as well to a swap for the downdrafts?
I don't know if it would be worth it. One can add a few things to the stock FI engine that will give it more pull. Mark's cams with the adjustable cam wheels for example.
Reading here, the IDF's can be a bit fiddly, especially if like me a neophyte with the IDF's. FI is pretty easy.
I'd get another car and try putting the 44 IDF's on that engine..
One cannot really compare the Bosch system to IDF's, the Bosch system was primarily for economy and to reduce emissions.
It is a great basic system and over the last 30 years or so has proved itself well.
One of the main difference I think is that the inlet to the Bosch system is restricted to the AFM where the IDF's have the same size inlet for each cylinder. I imagine it may be compared to breathing through a straw??
Just as an example I have a 2L injected car and have the compression raised a bit and slightly bigger inject and have played around with the AFM tension spring but otherwise mine is fairly stock.
At the fiat national earlier this year cars that were smaller capacity would easily overtake me down the strait, all of them being carbies, some were single some were Idf's but either way the opening is much larger than the AFM. >>click here for the you tube clip to get an idea<< you need to watch the end of the clip
However the Bosch system is great, it's smooth, economical and starts first go..One day I will be putting throttle bodies on and then it would be 'WOW'....
Cheers David
-=1980 silver Fiat 124 Spider=-
If you want to see pics of my car (and other random stuff) >>click here<< OR
see my >>You tube channel<<
-=1980 silver Fiat 124 Spider=-
If you want to see pics of my car (and other random stuff) >>click here<< OR
see my >>You tube channel<<
- Redline
- Posts: 631
- Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:34 pm
- Your car is a: formerly a 1971 Fiat 124 BC Coupe
- Location: Switzerland
Re: All I can say is WOW!!
As much as I love my IDFs on my Coupe, I don't think I would swap out the Bosch system for carbs. I really don't think the Bosch CIS necessarily limits breathing, even through a single TB. I just bought an old 16V GTI (European) and it is rated at 139hp from 1.8L. I think the limiting factor on the 2L cars is the low compression and mild cams.
If I had a reasonably well functioning CIS setup, I would just leave it and enjoy the no-hassle driveability. If I wanted to do something interesting, then like you said, I would go to ITBs and keep the injection, since everything you need from the tank to the fuel rail is already in place, and there are some very good fuel-ignition management systems now.
If I had a reasonably well functioning CIS setup, I would just leave it and enjoy the no-hassle driveability. If I wanted to do something interesting, then like you said, I would go to ITBs and keep the injection, since everything you need from the tank to the fuel rail is already in place, and there are some very good fuel-ignition management systems now.
http://www.124bc.com
La Dolce Vita: Joy and frustration at the speed of smoke
La Dolce Vita: Joy and frustration at the speed of smoke
- RoyBatty
- Posts: 852
- Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:44 pm
- Your car is a: 1975 124 Spider - 1971 124 Sport Coupe
- Location: Locust Grove, VA
Re: All I can say is WOW!!
What engine are you running and what other mods do you have on ?seabeelt wrote:Well, I have run another tank of gas through her and and I'm still getting a back fire on number 2 I think through the carb.I change the plugs to new nkg iridiums with on improvement. Pulled the exhaust can cover and I can see the lobe of number 2 is chipped, but I think BEEK had mentioned that when he did the head. I think the shims have settled some as all were .016 and.015 (#2). Not bad,but will need to be redone soon. I will check the intake side tomorrow. I may pull the timing belt.cover just to check to make sure I have t skipped a tooth one one of the pulleys. Number 2 is definitely noisier than the rest. Hope I don't have a sticking intake valve.
The 1800 in my spider is stock on the inside and when I installed the idf40s, my tweaking found the need to richen everything up a bit.
Try going to the next richer idle jet if all else checks out ok.
- seabeelt
- Patron 2019
- Posts: 1614
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:22 pm
- Your car is a: Fiat Spider - 1971 BS1
- Location: Tiverton, RI
Re: All I can say is WOW!!
Roy, it's the 1608 engine with stock everything except the carbs and Mark's electronic ignition. I found the problem this past weekend. Number 2 idle jet was plugged. I got to thinking that since the car ran fine when I first installed them something must have changed. So I pulled the top off of the front carb and found silty rust looking stuff in the bottom of the float bowl. That led me to pull all of the jets in that carb, clean everything with carb cleaner and compressed air. That's when I found that the number 2 idle jet was plugged. No air coming out of the carb while squirting air in the idle needle adjustment screw hole. Had to get a tiny strand of wire and poke it in the carb hole to free up what ever was in there. I cleaned the inlet filter. (Surprised I had to do this since I am running two filters between the tank and the carbs). Also changed the fuel filters. What a difference. No more back fire and fuel pressure jumped from 3 to 4 psi from the mechanical fuel pump. Smile is back on my face, but I am thinking that I need to replace those old fuel lines as the tank is new and that is the only thing in between the tank and the carbs where I could get some rusty residue. Add it to the project list.
Also just wanted to add my two cents regarding swapping from Fuel Injection to IDFs. I guess for me it's the "fun factor" and the "ease of working on them factor" but also ease of repair and adjustment ( again from my perspective). First no electronics to monkey with. Not worrying abut this signal or that setting or having to have a noid light. All you need is a can of carb cleaner and a screwdriver and if you want to be really fussy, an air meter to adjust air flow accurately. I would also argue that there is no need to buy an electric fuel pump and regulator unless you want to be really precise with all of your settings. I have found that the stock mechanical pump puts out adequate fuel pressure at WOT (3-4 psi in my case) to adequately supply the carbs with enough fuel. I am guessing Fiat would not have put the dual 40s on the 1608 if that were not the case. Call it sidewalk lawyering if you want, but I think the logic is there for not having to have an electric fuel pump unless perhaps you are racing. Same goes with tweaking all of the jet sizes. Depends on how you want to run it and what you want to get out of the car and your driving style. As many have said here, the Dyno test will show you how you are really performing with your setup. Given that I have a stock engine with over 100k miles on it, the factory spec setup- so called works fine with what I have and I fixed my backfire problem in about 15 minutes because I have limited things to check and tweak. Last it starts right up at the touch of the key and a little pressure on the gas pedal every time, cold or warm. Ok, last, last. It sounds IMO way more cool than an FI
Also just wanted to add my two cents regarding swapping from Fuel Injection to IDFs. I guess for me it's the "fun factor" and the "ease of working on them factor" but also ease of repair and adjustment ( again from my perspective). First no electronics to monkey with. Not worrying abut this signal or that setting or having to have a noid light. All you need is a can of carb cleaner and a screwdriver and if you want to be really fussy, an air meter to adjust air flow accurately. I would also argue that there is no need to buy an electric fuel pump and regulator unless you want to be really precise with all of your settings. I have found that the stock mechanical pump puts out adequate fuel pressure at WOT (3-4 psi in my case) to adequately supply the carbs with enough fuel. I am guessing Fiat would not have put the dual 40s on the 1608 if that were not the case. Call it sidewalk lawyering if you want, but I think the logic is there for not having to have an electric fuel pump unless perhaps you are racing. Same goes with tweaking all of the jet sizes. Depends on how you want to run it and what you want to get out of the car and your driving style. As many have said here, the Dyno test will show you how you are really performing with your setup. Given that I have a stock engine with over 100k miles on it, the factory spec setup- so called works fine with what I have and I fixed my backfire problem in about 15 minutes because I have limited things to check and tweak. Last it starts right up at the touch of the key and a little pressure on the gas pedal every time, cold or warm. Ok, last, last. It sounds IMO way more cool than an FI
Michael and Deborah Williamson
1971 Spider -Tropie’ - w screaming IDFs
1971 Spider - Vesper -scrapped
1979 Spider - Seraphina - our son's car now sold
1972 Spider - Tortellini- our son's current
1971 Spider -Tropie’ - w screaming IDFs
1971 Spider - Vesper -scrapped
1979 Spider - Seraphina - our son's car now sold
1972 Spider - Tortellini- our son's current