Air Conditioner

[bjbrown]

Just bought a NOS air conditioner unit for the Fiat Spider 2000 (1982) on eBay. I missed a similar deal a few years ago when it was about half the price, but with the summers occasionally in triple digits around here, I think it'll be very welcome and well worth the cost. All the components I'm getting will be brand-new, but obviously are over 30 years old and oriented to the R12 refrigerant. I saw an earlier thread about retrofitting A/C in our cars and the dilemma of the refrigerant but there were no conclusive answers about installation and operation. Therefore...

Here are the questions:
1. Should I take the compressor (or any other parts) into an A/C shop to be inspected before putting the whole works into the car?
2. Is there a current/replacement refrigerant that will work with the old equipment without any further modification?
3. Can the refrigerant be installed by the home mechanic? I've topped off the fluid in our newer cars with no problem, but haven't loaded refrigerant into a new system.
4. Has anyone installed the dealer-provided A/C units before on a manual transmission car (1980, fuel injection)? Any issues to be aware of?

[vandor]

You may want to upgrade your condenser to a newer type, they are a lot more efficient. You can still get R-12, that may be the best to use.
You can also use R-134a, but you may have to flush all the old oil out of the system - check with experts. You would also need to change the fill ports to 134a type.

To fill with R-12 you need a gauge set specifically to R12, so it may be best to let someone else do that.

On some Spider 2000s there is a horizontal 'splitter' in the grille area between the upper and lower grilles. Cutting this out greatly increases the area available for the condenser. You want to use as large and as efficient a condenser as possible, as this will be the #1 determining factor to how much the air will be cooled.
IIRC I used a 12x20" condenser in mine that I was able to get quite cheap, ~$60 a few years ago.

[bjbrown]

Thanks, Csaba;

I checked with the local shop who said that 30 year old new components should be fine and that R12 was still available. When I get to the point of installing, I'll check with them again about converting to R-134a and the option of a more efficient condenser too. I see from the installation instructions there are a couple of areas in the body sheetmetal that need to be cut out to accommodate the condenser and allow some tubes to go through the radiator support. Also, it appears the bottom of the lower grille needs to be cut off. I wonder if a newer, more efficient condenser would require all that cutting (not that I'm averse)?

Has anyone photographically documented the installation of the stock dealer-installed A/C system?

I've scanned the installation and operation manuals for this kit. Is there a place where I should load them in this forum (or elsewhere) for anyone else needing that documentation?

[vandor]

Several companies made kits, so 'factory' instructions may not apply to your specific kit.

[johnsje6]

I just bought a '79 with air conditioning, I think it is factory. In Mexico right now, when I get home this weekend will take a look (and a photo) of the condenser location.
I have a coolant leak in the heater core area so I bypassed it before I left home, but will have to spend some 'quality time' under the dash to deal with that. Does the factory A/C make it harder to get the heater core/valve out? I am debating on the worth of keeping the A/C, but considering the effort to remove it with other things to spend my time on, will probably try to recharge it and see if it works.

[kmac33]

Don't convert to R-134 unless you can't obtain the R12 anymore - even if that means having it filled at a shop versus doing the fill yourself with easily obtained R-134. R12 is a more efficient coolant and on an older air conditioning system (even NOS), in a poorly insulated convertible, the system needs every advantage possible to maximize cooling.

[vandor]

> I just bought a '79 with air conditioning, I think it is factory

No such thing. They were all dealer installed.

Yes, the underdash unit makes it much harder to get to the heater valve. In most cases it has to be dropped down to be able to service the valve.

[Warren]

If you will email me at whhopson@southernco.com I will provide some marked up pictures and the installation manual of my retrofitted A/C (R134a). This system came from Factory Air in Texas and supposedly they were the suppliers for the dealer installed systems a long time ago. My system works good except when above 95 F as too much air in-leakage on the top (which is also not insulated) at highway speeds. Works good at low speeds and also below 95 F.

You will need to have a vacuum jet (Harbor Freight) and a good air compressor to pull the vacuum on the system once installed and of coarse the gauge set. My gauge set is 30 years old and was set up for R12/R22 but I bought conversion fittings to allow it for use on R134a also.

I did buy one of the Interdynamics R12 to R134a conversion kits several years ago from Target and I eventually used it on our 1993 Chevy truck where the old R12 had eventually leaked out. I did this 2 years ago and it is still working well. I had intended to use that kit on some used Fiat A/C components but then Factory Air came out with the R134a sytem and a very attractive price ($770 was $1100 as I recall).

[davery]

> I just bought a '79 with air conditioning, I think it is factory

No such thing. They were all dealer installed.

Yes, the underdash unit makes it much harder to get to the heater valve. In most cases it has to be dropped down to be able to service the valve.

Were there any cars that came with factory air? I bought an 85 in 1989 and swear it had factory air. I had for about 4 years until some HS girl ran into me and totaled it. It is probably still sitting at the junkyard in Bloomington, IN. In those pre-internet days it was very hard to get accurate information on these cars.

[bradartigue]

> I just bought a '79 with air conditioning, I think it is factory

No such thing. They were all dealer installed.

Yes, the underdash unit makes it much harder to get to the heater valve. In most cases it has to be dropped down to be able to service the valve.

Were there any cars that came with factory air? I bought an 85 in 1989 and swear it had factory air. I had for about 4 years until some HS girl ran into me and totaled it. It is probably still sitting at the junkyard in Bloomington, IN. In those pre-internet days it was very hard to get accurate information on these cars.

Maybe. Pininfarina Spiders are not well documented and, relative to the FIAT fleet, are rare. If it used the pininfarina-only center vents and did not have extra vents running along the bottom then it may have been installed during manufacture.

[Holshot]

> I just bought a '79 with air conditioning, I think it is factory

No such thing. They were all dealer installed.

Yes, the underdash unit makes it much harder to get to the heater valve. In most cases it has to be dropped down to be able to service the valve.

Were there any cars that came with factory air? I bought an 85 in 1989 and swear it had factory air. I had for about 4 years until some HS girl ran into me and totaled it. It is probably still sitting at the junkyard in Bloomington, IN. In those pre-internet days it was very hard to get accurate information on these cars.

I had a '84 and it had the same exact system that I had in an '81 and my most recent '82 TURBO so that would lead me to believe that they are all the same unit that was a dealer installed option. Sorry to hear about your loss damn women drivers!

[Holshot]

I just bought a '79 with air conditioning, I think it is factory. In Mexico right now, when I get home this weekend will take a look (and a photo) of the condenser location.
I have a coolant leak in the heater core area so I bypassed it before I left home, but will have to spend some 'quality time' under the dash to deal with that. Does the factory A/C make it harder to get the heater core/valve out? I am debating on the worth of keeping the A/C, but considering the effort to remove it with other things to spend my time on, will probably try to recharge it and see if it works.

It "can"be done but it would really be a huge pain and not worth the trouble in my opinion... Take the extra 10 minutes to drop the blower unit to access the heater core more easily. You will thank yourself in the end. As to opinions on removing it... I removed my entire system for the simple fact it cleans up the interior (my opinion) and also under the hood with the huge, heavy compressor and then the condenser that's in front of the radiator blocking some of the air flow and I'm sure that radiator will certainly like it gone, lol... I bet with everything removed you'll shave at least 30lbs possibly 40 lbs off the front of the car. Mine didn't work which also helped with that decision but in all honesty it would have came out none the less as it's a convertible and I usually only drive them in good weather so no need especially when you're moving.

[vandor]

[quote="bradartigue"... If it used the pininfarina-only center vents ... [/quote]

Not possible, as those vents were ducted directly to the cowl, so were able to provide outside air only.

[racydave]

R12 is really bad for the environment. And it is expensive. Modern equipment is made to recover R134 and reuse it in case a repair in necessary. R12, not. I would build the system, know how much charge is needed, and let a shop evacuate and recharge it. You will need a fan on during operation for air flow across the condenser. I saved a pusher fan from a Lancia, that would mount to the front of the condenser. It should be relayed. I have converted many over without changing the oil. Kits include screw on adaptors for the service ports. I work on AC many times during my work week.

[BEEK]

r501b aka freeze12, works real well in r12 systems, and is not bad for the enviroment