Positive camber??

[wizard124]

I recently finished re-building my front end. New ball joints on the old control arms. New bushings. Same springs. New KYB's.

My front wheels seem to have a positive camber. That is, the top of the wheels appear to lean out relative to the the bottom. I didn't notice this before the work. I torqued the control arm nuts/bushings with my wife and 3 kids sitting in the car. I've put about 100 miles on it so I would think that the suspension would be settled in by now.

Is this typical Should I be concerned What can I do to change the camber The lower control arm bolt/pin is already shimmed out from the cross member by about 1/4 inch. Can more shims be added and is there a limit

Warren

[divace73]

did you put the shim back in and in the same numbers either side??
Get it aligned propery, you'll wear out your tyres in no time, ask me how I know.......

[vandor]

I think the stock alignment calls for zero camber to very slight positive, but so small that you'd likely not be able to see it.

If there is enough that you can see it, have it aligned!

[azruss]

with the car loaded, park on a flat smooth floor like a garage. take a framing square and set it between the ground and the vertical centerline of the front tire. with a tape measure, compare the distance from the square to the top and bottom of the rim. this will give you a close measurement of camber. If the bottom is in, no a problem, you can add shims. if the bottom is out, you have an issue.

[wizard124]

did you put the shim back in and in the same numbers either side??
Get it aligned propery, you'll wear out your tyres in no time, ask me how I know.......

I never removed the shims from the bolts. So, they are exactly as they were before.

with the car loaded, park on a flat smooth floor like a garage. take a framing square and set it between the ground and the vertical centerline of the front tire. with a tape measure, compare the distance from the square to the top and bottom of the rim. this will give you a close measurement of camber. If the bottom is in, no a problem, you can add shims. if the bottom is out, you have an issue.

The positive camber was eyeballed with no one in the car. I tried to check vertical with a square but I didn't have the proper length. I'll cut a yardstick down to length and get an accurate check.

I think the stock alignment calls for zero camber to very slight positive, but so small that you'd likely not be able to see it.

If there is enough that you can see it, have it aligned!

Maybe, It was always there..just never noticed it. One thought is the replacement ball joints (they fit the hole pattern perfectly) could have their studs slightly offset from the originals.

[azruss]

I find that visual works if the camber is way off. shadows and tires can alter what you see. If all you have is a small square, dont trust what you get. your floor is too uneven and you need a long square to take out the error. a framing square has long enough sides to do the trick in both directions.

[wizard124]

Checking out my manual, camber specification is 1/2 degree+/- 1/2 degree with the vehicle loaded (2 person + 130 pounds of luggage for spiders '75 on).

I cut down a yardstick to use as a straightedge. Then fastened this to a framer's square that has a small built in level. The driver's tire is positive camber of 1 degree (unloaded) and the passenger's tire is slightly less. I doubt my eye is keen enough to see this , more likely an illusion having to do with the lines of the car.

My geometry is a bit rough and I can't find my scientific calculator...but the internet has all the answers My tire rim is 14.3125 inches (14 5/16) bead to bead. This is the hypotenuse of a right triangle when the straight edge is vertical. The bottom leg of the triangle is the distance the straightedge had to be pushed out from the bottom bead..that distance was .25 (1/4 inch). The sine of an angle is opposite/hypotenuse. In this case .25/14.3125 = 0.0175. Going to a sine chart, this is 1degree.

Even if I measured incorrectly and compound my errors by 1/16 of an inch............5/16 divided by 14 1/4 results in an increase in camber of less than 1/2 degree. Since these measurements were done with the vehicle empty and I am on the outside limits of specifications,,,,,I'll call it good-to-go

[azruss]

I'm am planning on "weight"ing my car with water. 18 gallons is 150#. my seats arent in so i will put a piece of plywood down and a plastic garbage can. I'll get rid of the weight with a siphon hose. I will also weigh my seats and add that in water.

[wizard124]

I'm am planning on "weight"ing my car with water. 18 gallons is 150#. my seats arent in so i will put a piece of plywood down and a plastic garbage can. I'll get rid of the weight with a siphon hose. I will also weigh my seats and add that in water.

Have you changed your springs out? Or changed the crossmember? Do you think your geometry is way out or just being extra precise?

Wouldn't it be easier to round up a bunch of neighborhood kids and pay them in ice cream

[So Cal Mark]

wow, after going to all of the trouble and expense of rebuilding the front end you're willing to ruin a set of tires because you won't get it aligned? Besides the fact you'll have an ill-handling car. Factory specs that allow a range of a whole degree are a joke. Only a chain store would check alignment and call it good if it fell in that range.
Sometimes I just don't get it............

[azruss]

Have you changed your springs out? Or changed the crossmember? Do you think your geometry is way out or just being extra precise?

I have pulled the cross member and changed the springs. I know my suspension is way out of whack. It will require shimming the cross member as one side is ok but the other is out a country mile. I have done caster and camber myself and havent gone to an alignment shop with the fiat in decades. I must do an ok job as i got 65k miles out of the last set of tires after the work.
I found a very good alignment shop that has very good equipment and is very reasonable. I want to talk to them about shimming the crossmember. If they havent got a clue, I will shim that myself so it can be adjusted. Right now, the bottom is outside the top. It is so far out, the car is undrivable. I would prefer to take the car there straight from paint, but i have no weight in the car (ie, seats, side glass, bumpers, lights, seats, top, spare, trunk floor, yadda yadda) and dont trust them to compensate.

[wizard124]

wow, after going to all of the trouble and expense of rebuilding the front end you're willing to ruin a set of tires because you won't get it aligned? Besides the fact you'll have an ill-handling car. Factory specs that allow a range of a whole degree are a joke. Only a chain store would check alignment and call it good if it fell in that range.
Sometimes I just don't get it............

If you saw the old set of tires that are on my car, you wouldn't be too concerned. New tires are in the plan and an alignment at that time My manual specs camber at 0 degree, 30 minutes +/- 30 minutes, do you know something different? Your advice is appreciated, I 'll have to do my homework to find a competent alignment shop.

[v6spider]

Mark is correct..

When you change out front-end parts you have to get an alignment because everything has changed. You can do a temporary alignment with a protractor level and a tape measure. BUT, it is not a substitute for a good alignment done correctly on a machine by pros. Bad tires or not I wouldn't drive it until you get an alignment... IMHO...

Rob