gated shifter

[124JOE]

it sounds like a job for MYLAR on plastic.joe

[manoa matt]

"it sounds like a job for MYLAR on plastic.joe"

Where is the "like" button, that is funny.

[Razooli]

I can't imagine imprisoning the Fiat shift lever in a metal gate.The engineers went to all the trouble of creating the chrome sleeve with bushings, etc to dampen the shifter vibration ... who would seriously place that thing in a narrow hunk of metal? The gates would have to be so wide to eliminate the rattle, I seriously doubt there would be any "bling" factor left. Unless one is just going to look at it and not drive it.
With all this talk of gates, I've just got to post this eBay item.
Buy this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Fiat-Spi ... 20bcb54f15
Even at the buy-now price it's a bargain for the chrome sleeve and ball. Having gone thru several short shifters on my car, I was never able to get rid of the horrible lever rattle.
Do this: (I think Alvon did something similar using a metric bolt...)
http://scratchybottom.blogspot.com/2009 ... ifter.html
Shortens the throws, retains the plastic and rubber dampers to eliminate vibration .... no bling, just function.
Rant over.

[v6spider]

To me the gated shifter would do more damage than good ... A short throw shifter is much more advantagious my t5 in my v6 spider has a short throw shifter...I really like it...they are really easy to make.

Rob

[kbee00]

Thanks to everyone for offering up their opinions. I am having a hard time understanding why it would be detrimental to actually hold the shifter in position at each gear point. Seems to me, allowing the shifter to flop around would promote wear as the shift forks, etc. moved around from the motion of the shifter itself.

Resting your hand on the shifter IS a bad idea - because you are push/pulling on it as your hand/arm/torso move around. You impose motion. So take away this input, and now the motion is provided by the inertia of the shifter/ball/shaft moving around. Seems everyone agrees that unintended motion is not a good thing. So how can it be a bad thing to hold the shifter firmly in place?? Of course it is not attached to the car - it is attached to the trans. Kinda thought that was assumed....

So, I build a shifter - starting right above the pivot point or fulcrum for those that like engineering terms (BTW - as PE in Mechanical Engineering and designer of robotic automation equipment, I have a basic understanding of most things mechanical - and I like the term fulcrum too.... ) I create the shift rod such that the upper attachment has three degrees of freedom but control pitch, yaw and roll. On the shift rod, there is a joint -ball and socket -which seems fit for this application - and it has two degrees of freedom. It can slide up and down the rod and it can rotate on the shift rod -around the center of the rod, and perpendicular to the rod axis. Picture a ball on the shift rod that can slide on the rod, surrounded by another ball that can pivot on the inner ball. This allows for lateral movement - in X and Y planes - AND change in position in the Z direction. That's the hard part. Now, the outer ball rides in slot/ tunnel that is the gate. The ball traces a path in the gate and can move freely BUT motion is contained due the natural spring load imposed on the dual ball/socket assembly. And there would be a detent for each gear. This holds position - stops motion. Good, yes?

If this seems complicated – it is an identical representation of almost all gated shifter assemblies. Yes, they may not contain all these elements, but they function –with varying degrees – exactly the same. So in reality, I am just copying earlier designs. So, as they say in Top Gear , how hard can it be??

As I mentioned, this mod is not on the top of my priority list. I just finished welding in new metal on the driver’s side. Next, fix the passenger side. Then onto the rotisserie, and then assembly. Meanwhile, I am planning a bunch of mods (the motor will get an EDIS, Mules ignition system, the Croma intake, etc.) and the gated shifter just seems right… .

[124ADDHE]

I really think only a poorly designed gate that holds pressure on the shifter while in gear would lead to any kind of out of normal shifter wear. You would really have to be a f-ing ape to break the shifter in any configuration in the spider, I am a 270pound martial artist and I can only really see bending the damn thing, look how hard it is to pull off the chrome bit from the steel!

Do your own thing, its more for looks anyways, right?

[kbee00]

I really think only a poorly designed gate that holds pressure on the shifter while in gear would lead to any kind of out of normal shifter wear. You would really have to be a f-ing ape to break the shifter in any configuration in the spider, I am a 270pound martial artist and I can only really see bending the damn thing, look how hard it is to pull off the chrome bit from the steel!

Do your own thing, its more for looks anyways, right?

Actually, it is part looks but mostly for mechanical reasons. I had the unfortuneate opportunity to dissassemble my trans and in doing so, found many weak links. Previous to switching from British cars to Italian cars - I was most familiar with the Brits designs. Seems the Italians just wantedt to do their own thing. And the price they paid did not support advancement in gearbox design. Frankly, from my humble opinion, a gate would do wonders to decrease wear. The real problems lie in the fact that the shifter forks are poorly controlled. I disassembled 3 boxes - all within 10K miles of each other - and the forks had nothing in common when it came to wear. Now, if someone that had more experience could please offer a differing view, I am all ears. But even so, controlling unintended motion is the goal.

For those that commented as to what a bad idea this is, and said that this was nothing but bling in exchange for extra wear - lets hear from you. Really, I am here to learn. So enlighten me as to your knowledge. This is why I posted this - I could have just gone on my merry way but I am not so naive to think I have all the answers.

I am looking forward to your replies.

Thank you!!!

LT

[leftfield6]

So, to be clear, you envision your gate to actually be an active part of your shifter linkage, right? The sides of the gate slots would be holding, and thus exerting force, on the shifter? Attached to the transmission, or to the center tunnel?

I'm not passing myself off as an expert here by any means, but isn't this somewhat analagous to the "resting your hand on the shifter" that causes premature wear?

My 79 Spider that I sold years ago had a rock solid transmission, clutch, and shifter. It had zero problems with popping out of gear, it shifted smoothly, both a a normal shift rate, and when I was feeling zippy and shifting fast. I drove that car as a daily driver for 6 years, accumulating over 120K in that time. Never a problem from the transmission.

I don't have the experience digging into the transmission that you do, and neither have I had a chance to compare the Italian approach to the British, but I will say that I don't think the transmission is an inherently weak point on the 124, and I don't see what a gated shifter would have added to my 120K trouble-free miles.

YMMV, as they say.

[maytag]

but I will say that I don't think the transmission is an inherently weak point on the 124,

teeheeheehee.... Yer kidding, right?

[leftfield6]

but I will say that I don't think the transmission is an inherently weak point on the 124,

teeheeheehee.... Yer kidding, right?

Not really, although I know my experience might not be the common view. Like I said, my 79 went over 120K of my ownership with zero issues, and last I heard from the guy I sold it to, was still going strong.

Preventive maintenance with quality lube, keeping the clutch in proper adjustment, all I ever had to do.

At the same time, I was driving a fairly stock 79, no upgrades other than a better carb to replace the crappy stangled one that came on the 79s. I recegnize that for someone running more HP/torque, the transmission may become a weak link.

[TX82FIAT]

Wow.... from gated shifter to the transmission durability. I'm on my third Spider. I agree that a well maintained transmission can last. However, the transmission is a potential week point in these cars given the brass syncro rings, heat and spirited driving even on a 100% stock spider. We can argue the point.. don't care too! i would ask you to survey the spider owners on this forum that have over say.... 80,000 miles on the car and see if they have exeperienced any significant transmission issues. my limited experience suggests Most owners with over 80K on the car have had a transmission problem beyond basic clutch replacement or adjustment. This is one of the reasons so many owners talk about alternative transmissions like the 131 when they up the horse power a little.

[leftfield6]

Holy thread wander! No kidding!!

I'll bow out, if anyone wants to experiment with a gated shifter, go for it. I'll just be happy to get mine on the road with a plain ole leather boot!!!

[kbee00]

So, to be clear, you envision your gate to actually be an active part of your shifter linkage, right? The sides of the gate slots would be holding, and thus exerting force, on the shifter? Attached to the transmission, or to the center tunnel?

I'm not passing myself off as an expert here by any means, but isn't this somewhat analagous to the "resting your hand on the shifter" that causes premature wear?

To the point of exerting force - mounted on the tunnel - probably. Mounted on the trans - there is no force exerted if the shifter is not trying to move against the gate. If it is trying to move, then wouldn't that imply the internal parts are moving also? And that would be the reason for wear. Therefore, hold the shifter, minimize the wear. Resting your hand is not the same - that is bad because your body, i.e. hand, is moving thus applying forces i.e motion, to the shifter. Once again, this will move the internals - causing wear.

Yes, we could go on and on about this - and I guess there is only one way to be sure.....

Thanks to everyone for their input.

LT

[vandor]

....
Do this: (I think Alvon did something similar using a metric bolt...)
http://scratchybottom.blogspot.com/2009 ... ifter.html
Shortens the throws, retains the plastic and rubber dampers to eliminate vibration

We did that to Jeff's Coupe, and it still vibrated, just like the solid short shifter...

[maytag]

so, I've got a 131 trans with no remote-shifter on it. I'm looking at how in the world I'll make it work in my project-car... and I'm currently looking at my engineering (in)abilities to see if I can build a remote-shifter of my own.
I think it would need to incorporate a "gate" of sorts, attached to the trans itself, and acting as the pivot point for the rod / linkage.

Has anyone ever seen anything like this?

It makes me think too that there is no reason why on a stock 124, a properly measured and prepared gate couldn't be attached to the trans, and rubber-gasketed into the tunnel-cover. Remember that the shift-mechanism on the 124 trans is a pivot... so how would it NOT create a problem, but a gated shifter would? I don't see it. (unless the fit is improper)