Do these washers belong behind the lower control arm mount?

[WBPDX]

I'm hoping to get an answer on this right away, because tomorrow night I will be ready to assemble my totally refurbished front end. One side of my car has no washers, just the shims for alignment.

The other side has a thick washer on each stud, and then a bunch of very thin ones. there are more in the back than in the front.

Is this someone's ghetto alignment attempt, or is this something that was done at the factory and needs to be put back? I am not sure what to think, since someone had to take the control arm off to do this, so it obviously wasn't part of a routine alignment... Or would it be?

Again - Passenger side - just two random shims, one front and one rear per stud.
Drivers side - Thick washers + a ton of thin washers + one shim front and rear per stud.

This is the Drivers side:



Thanks everyone!

[azruss]

those shims are used to adjust caster and camber. i have also seen the washer "cut" so they can slide over the stud without removing the bottom a-arm.

[WBPDX]

So yeah, there were regular shims in there, and then these guys.

I will be driving the car direct to the alignment shop when I get it back together - Should I leave the shims out, or should I try to put them back where they were?

Do I leave the washers out (since the control arm would have to be taken off if they need to be removed by the person doing the alignment, if they need to be removed) or do I leave them on?

[boogiedude]

Remove the washers if you're getting an immediate alignment. If not, and the shop has to remove shims(washers) they'll have to pull the whole control arm off and charge you the labor to do so.(trust me, I've gotten the short end of that stick after my last rebuild). The shop should replace them with more modern shims that are shaped like horseshoes so they can slip on and off with the arm still on. That's what you're paying them to do anyways

Although, since your car was so radically different between the two sides, You may need to leave them on or else it would take an ungodly amount of shims to make it up.

[WBPDX]

You suggest removing them, but then in the same breath, say they might not be able to make up the same adjustment...

For what it is worth, the alignment was previously quite bad, but not on the drivers side. The passenger side wore out the inside edge of brand new tires in probably 2-3k miles tops. However, almost all of the front end suspension and steering parts were bad, even the wheel bearings - I can't be sure what really caused that wear.

[WBPDX]

I took it to sears because they were open late - They weren't able to quite make the caster numbers, but the rest got in line A-o-ok.

Feels sooooo much better now. I was even brave enough to take it up to 50mph.

[azygoustoyou]

I know how you feel. I took my car completely apart without the knowledge of counting the shims.
Now I have to put it back together and hope they can get it right.
I guess from what you guys are saying I shouldn't put any shims back on. Or just put 5 on each. I don't know. I think they were on all sides. But can't remember for sure.

[WBPDX]

I just left the two thick washers that were on the drivers side.

I also just realized I forgot to put the wheel shims\spacers on. I wonder if that would have helped with the caster?

[azruss]

you can do a rough set with the thick shims. install them and drop the car on a flat surface. roll the car back and forth a few time. take a framing square and set it centerline to the wheel and perpendicular. use a tape measure the measure the distance between the top and bottom the rim to the vertical leg of the square. the numbers should be the same or the bottom be slightly smaller than the top. this gives the alignment shop a close starting point so they dont have to add the thick shims. If you have no shims and the bottom distance is larger than the top, you have a problem.

[BEEK]

If the bottom is wider than the top! You have shock tower issues. I have seen some fiats where the shock towers have been so severely bent inwards at the top that alignment was not possible without using a port-a-power and pushing the shock towers back into position. Then reinforcement had to be done to keep the problem from reoccurring. I have replaced many inner fenders/ shock towers for this problem.

As for the shims, the factory in their infinite wisdom figured that these cars would never need alignment after leaving the factory. You should leave all washers off the studs on the cross member when rebuilding the front end. Alignment shims come in different thicknesses. There won’t have to be a large stack of shims unless you have another problem.

As for the lower control arms, many people over tighten the lower control arm pivot point. Big mistake! The reason lock nuts are used is to permit a slight tightness without the nuts backing off. Grease the lower bushings on the pivot pin. Snug the nuts and the suspension will work as designed. Tightening the nuts too much will destroy your lower bushings in record time. The bushing is put in a twist when the suspension moves; it tears it from the housing. This also causes the front end of the car to sit too high after a rebuild and the owner wondering what is different. The bushings are actually acting as part of the spring and holding the cars front end up... bad idea

[azygoustoyou]

Thanks all,
I'll leave mine off.

[TronDD]

The bushing is put in a twist when the suspension moves; it tears it from the housing. This also causes the front end of the car to sit too high after a rebuild and the owner wondering what is different. The bushings are actually acting as part of the spring and holding the cars front end up... bad idea

This is why you are supposed to tighten the nuts on suspension joints with the car at ride height. The rubber is supposed to be in a twist as the suspension moves. It's just not supposed to be preloaded.

Tim.

[BEEK]

The bushing is put in a twist when the suspension moves; it tears it from the housing. This also causes the front end of the car to sit too high after a rebuild and the owner wondering what is different. The bushings are actually acting as part of the spring and holding the cars front end up... bad idea

This is why you are supposed to tighten the nuts on suspension joints with the car at ride height. The rubber is supposed to be in a twist as the suspension moves. It's just not supposed to be preloaded.

Tim.

again i say do not tighten the suspension bushing nuts on the ends of the pivot bolts where the movement of the pivot is not allowed and the rubber becomes the pivot! or buy stock in suspension bushings, your choice just snug the nuts or buy lots of bushings.