I finally got the motor out/part 2 the rebuild

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70spider
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Location: N.E. New Mexico

I finally got the motor out/part 2 the rebuild

Postby 70spider » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:50 pm

Hello everyone it has been awhile since my last post, I hope everyone's' spider is running great. I believe I blew the head gasket the last time we spoke and I finally got the motor out and the head removed and this is what I saw.
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The cylinder walls don't looked glazed, but the pistons are completely caked with carbon build up, :? The PO said he had some motor work done but wasn't specific on what was done. His mechanic simply got the car running for him and gave him a bill, which was about $600 in labor so what was done I have no clue, nor did the PO.
At any rate I feel a short block rebuild is in order. If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions let me know.
Last edited by 70spider on Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1970 Fiat Spider 124 Sport aka "Pesto"
2002 Mazda Protege5
2013 Buddy 170i

vandor
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Location: Texas, USA

Re: I finally got the motor out

Postby vandor » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:09 am

That much carbon buildup is not bad at all. Rebuild it and it will run great again!
Csaba
'71 124 Spider, much modified
'17 124 Abarth, silver
http://italiancarclub.com/csaba/
Co-owner of the best dang Fiat parts place in town

carl
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Re: I finally got the motor out

Postby carl » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:59 am

Looks like the head gasket between cylinders 2 and 3 failed.

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70spider
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Re: I finally got the motor out

Postby 70spider » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:23 pm

The gasket failed due to 3 head bolts not being torqued down, in fact on one of them so lose I could have taken it out by hand. I know I need to rebuild it, but I think a refresh might be in the budget. I need to get it running by the end of the summer. I was thinking of honing the cylinders, having a machine shop press fit the pistons, put new bearings in, and new gaskets and seals. Any thoughts?
1970 Fiat Spider 124 Sport aka "Pesto"
2002 Mazda Protege5
2013 Buddy 170i

klweimer
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Re: I finally got the motor out

Postby klweimer » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:58 pm

Any idea on oil pressure before you pulled the head? How many miles on the engine? If you're trying to keep the budget down, you could just have the head cleaned up, drop in a new gasket and put it back together...
Kirk

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nelsonj
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Re: I finally got the motor out

Postby nelsonj » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:21 pm

I might be speaking a bit out of school (I've only changed my head once) but that much carbon (on the pistons and the head) makes me think there's a lot of oil consumption/combustion going on. Inside that means worn rings and/or leaky valves/guides.

Did you put enough miles on it to get a feel of how much oil you were losing? If it was considerable (say well more than a quart every 1000 miles) I wouldn't just put'r back together.

Just my 2cents. And make sure you torque the head bolts correctly (proper order and torque) on the reassemble! This is what I did and have had great results so far. Here is the pattern I followed:

Image

I did things in four steps, following the pattern each time.
Step 1: I just put in all the bolts with almost no torque just with a normal socket
Step 2: I used a 'Breaker" torque wrench and put on 50 lbs on each bolt
Step 3: I used a "bender" torque wrench and put about 61 lbs on each bolt. I made sure they could hold the 61 lbs for 5 seconds without moving. At least with my wrench, it was hard to be accurate. I had between 61 and 65 lbs per bolt.
Step 4: I rechecked all the bolts in order with the "bender" wrench to make sure they were holding at least 61 lbs for 5 seconds. I think 2 bolts needed additional torquing.
Image
Simi Valley, California
Spider 1800
Romans 10:9

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70spider
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Re: I finally got the motor out

Postby 70spider » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:53 am

Well here is a little back story on the car. When I bought it a few years ago the previous owner(PO) had some work done on the motor. I asked him what he had down and he said he really did not know what the mechanic had done. But form the box of old parts I figured they replaced the bearings and rings. I do not think the rings sealed properly because I had a 250 mile drive home in him, plus I drove him kinda hard (when he was running :) ) The plugs, especially in #2 were oily and I would change them every 1000 miles. The car, according to the odometer, only had 53,000 miles on it and over a two year period I put another 5,000 miles. As for oil consumption or leakage there was very little, probably half a quart every 2,000 miles. However the oil pan gasket and rear crank seal began to leak a bit.
After listing all the issues he had I now realize I need to have a professional look at it. I'll tear the block apart and take it to the machinist and have him measure it and see if everything is within tolerances and proceed from there. I hope I do not need to bore it, I can't find any 80.4mm 1438 pistons at AutoRicambi and Midwest Bayless.
Well thanks for the advice everyone.
1970 Fiat Spider 124 Sport aka "Pesto"
2002 Mazda Protege5
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djape1977
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Re: I finally got the motor out

Postby djape1977 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:15 pm

do simple leak down test
rotate the crank so that all pistons are about half way up, and pour some petrol in each cylinder, to cover the piston for example.
15min later, if you don't find any petrol there or level has dropped significantly, it needs rebuilding

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70spider
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Re: I finally got the motor out

Postby 70spider » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:47 am

do simple leak down test
rotate the crank so that all pistons are about half way up, and pour some petrol in each cylinder, to cover the piston for example.
15min later, if you don't find any petrol there or level has dropped significantly, it needs rebuilding

Thanks I'll do this, sounds simple enough.
1970 Fiat Spider 124 Sport aka "Pesto"
2002 Mazda Protege5
2013 Buddy 170i

JohnMc
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Re: I finally got the motor out

Postby JohnMc » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:22 pm

I installed head stud kit from Mark - feel more confident with that. At time also installed gear reduction starter and hooked up with relay - starts like a champ.
Good time to look at crossmember and torque the bolts.

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70spider
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Re: I finally got the motor out

Postby 70spider » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:19 pm

I installed head stud kit from Mark - feel more confident with that. At time also installed gear reduction starter and hooked up with relay - starts like a champ.
I already have the new studs from Mark ready, plus I installed a gear reduction starter. Thanks for the ideas though.

Just finished the leak down test. Had the cylinders at the mid point of the stroke and added the same amount of fuel to each cylinder. #4 failed, lost all the fuel in less than 6 minutes, the other three still had their fuel with no apparent loss after 10 minutes. With that said I'll discus my options with the machinist. I hope it turns out to be just the rings, I can not get 80.4mm pistons for the 1438, Auto Ricambi are out of stock and only have 80.8mm (the last possible bore). Midwest-Bayless have 80.6mm but that also doesn't leave me much for another rebuild down the road. If anyone knows where I could get some 80.4mm 1438 pistons please let me know. I am going to take the block to the machinist on Fri. 24th, I will have a better idea on what I need to do.
1970 Fiat Spider 124 Sport aka "Pesto"
2002 Mazda Protege5
2013 Buddy 170i

zachmac
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Re: I finally got the motor out

Postby zachmac » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:02 pm

If you do decided to bore let me give you the same advise I got; go ahead and bore out to the max size.
1) You'll give your machinist the greatest chance at getting the smoothest and straightest rebore
2) You'll get the greatest displacement
3) Unless you plan on putting more than 200k miles on the car after rebuild you shouldn't ever have to do it again.
Jeff Klein, Aiken, SC
1980 FI Spider, Veridian with Tan (sold about a year ago), in the market for another project
1989 Spider, sold
2008 Mercedes SL65
2008 S600 Mercedes V12

djape1977
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Location: Belgrade, Serbia, eastern Europe

Re: I finally got the motor out

Postby djape1977 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:32 pm

regarding studs VS bolts - old 1301cc fiat sohc engines in 128 and x1/9 had studs from factory.
more then once i had to destroy the head in order to remove it because of heavy corrosion between steel of the stud and aluminium of the head

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70spider
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Re: I finally got the motor out

Postby 70spider » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:26 pm

Well, I called the machine shop to set up an appointment, he told me he is booked solid for a month, so I'll have to wait. In the mean time what is the best way to store the motor? I have everything off it except the crank and pistons, I put some fresh oil on the crank and wrapped a garbage bag around it. I did have some good news, I plastigauged the main journals clearance at 0.076mm so my crank looks good so far. In the mean time I'll pretty up the engine bay, work on the tranny, and change the brakes.
1970 Fiat Spider 124 Sport aka "Pesto"
2002 Mazda Protege5
2013 Buddy 170i

klweimer
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Your car is a: 1982 Spider 2000
Location: Arvada, Colorado

Re: I finally got the motor out

Postby klweimer » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:22 am

I would check your aux shaft very closely for evidence of hitting the crank or piston. I forget which cylinder it hits. Number 2? Anyway, mine was bent just slightly, making it enough out of round that I couldn't get the new aux shaft front bearing to fit as tightly as I wanted. The clearance on this front bearing is crucial to good oil pressure, as the galleries up to the head go right through (around) it. If the current bearing and shaft are good and close, be careful about having your block cleaned. Traditional hot tanking will eat up the bearing face material. And replacing the aux shaft bearings is no picnic.
Kirk


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