Electric Water Pump

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So Cal Mark
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Re: Electric Water Pump

Postby So Cal Mark » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:57 pm

you can leave the stock water pump intact, but we recommend removing the pump, cutting the blades from the impeller and re-installing the pump. At some point in the near future we'll offer pump block-off plates to replace the water pump
Mark Allison
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samakijoe
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Re: Electric Water Pump

Postby samakijoe » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:04 am

Two questions:

1. Will this pump work/fit on an engine with the alternator on the right (passenger) side?

2. Is there any data on how much HP is needed to run the standard pump at cruising speed? (3000 RPM)

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So Cal Mark
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Re: Electric Water Pump

Postby So Cal Mark » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:28 pm

the pump can be mounted anywhere and my initial thought is that it can occupy the space where the external thermostat sat. As long as the hose was routed to clear the alternator pulley it shouldn't be an issue. The hose adapters that bolt to the pump can be rotated 360 degrees so there is lots of flexibility as to how you locate it. We provide hoses that are longer than needed. Once you decide on the exact location you trim the hoses to length
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samakijoe
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Re: Electric Water Pump

Postby samakijoe » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:12 pm

One of the (hoped for) advantages would be the increase HP to the rear wheels...

So I ask again:

2.1. Is there any data on how much HP is needed to run the standard pump at cruising speed? (3000 RPM)

I don't happened to have one in my garage, but a quick run on a Dyno in both configurations, standard pump and the electric pump, at say 3K-4k RPM should be easy to do. All you need is equipment and/or money. :lol:

The data would be a real selling point ( or not ) depending on the outcome of the runs.

I can't be the only one asking.

Actually, I interested getting one. (I hoping for a number of something like 34 -35 HP...) :shock:

BTW: Do a search on YouTube for "Dyno Fails".
Great for a cold rainy night...Or if you have a lot of goof off time. :roll:

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baltobernie
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Re: Electric Water Pump

Postby baltobernie » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:08 pm

I don't think you need a dyno to estimate the HP savings of an electric water pump.

Have you ever seen a "trash pump" in action?

Image

Small ones are 5 HP or so, and throw more water than a dozen Fiats. So our belt-driven water pumps probably don't consume more than 1 HP. If they did, that teeny fan belt would never survive! I suspect OEMs use the electric pump for space savings more than anything else.

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nelsonj
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Re: Electric Water Pump

Postby nelsonj » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:54 pm

samakijoe wrote:One of the (hoped for) advantages would be the increase HP to the rear wheels...

2.1. Is there any data on how much HP is needed to run the standard pump at cruising speed? (3000 RPM)
Actually, I interested getting one. (I hoping for a number of something like 34 -35 HP...) l:


I hope this is an obvious joke (34-35 HP from changing the water pump) - per the previous post, 0.34-0.35 HP is more realistic.

You don't change to an e-pump for HP, you do it to regulate engine temperature in a way that should be far superior to the current FIAT setup. My stock setup works really well - for a stock setup. I never have over heating problems - but the difference in engine temp when cruising the freeway vs. stop&go can be dramatic. I'd say on the same drive (once warm) the temp swings from say 150 (open road) to about 200 (stop & stop just before the fan kicks in.) That's 50 degrees of head temperature change under the same ambient conditions! - that's a lot of variance!

Compare that with a modern cooling system, say of my Corolla. Once that car warms up the temp pegs around 185 AND DOESN'T MOVE - PERIOD. Driving conditions don't matter, outside temp doesn't matter, A/C on or off - it doesn't matter. It hits temp and stays there.

I would expect this electric water pump to regulate the FIAT's temp much closer to rock-solid regulation (like my Corolla). Superior temperature regulation is the reason for getting the electronic setup. You find the "sweet spot" temp for your engine, and then dial in that temp on the control panel, and let the electronic pump work its magic to keep you there. Solid temp regulation should keep the engine "happy" and producing good HP and predicable response under all conditions - very nice. But I don't think the waterpump alone will produce any noticeable HP increase.

Just my 2 Cents.

Peace.
Out.
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Simi Valley, California
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baltobernie
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Re: Electric Water Pump

Postby baltobernie » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:42 pm

Some modern cars have "fake" temperature gauges; the needle goes up to the middle and stays there. Hot or cold, moving or crawling. It turns out most motorists don't want real information, and owners were taking their cars in for service because the owners thought the temps were dangerous. I'll bet if you plugged a scanner into the OBDII port of your Corolla, you'd see a much wider temp swing than the dashboard gauge indicates.

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nelsonj
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Re: Electric Water Pump

Postby nelsonj » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:42 pm

baltobernie wrote:I'll bet if you plugged a scanner into the OBDII port of your Corolla, you'd see a much wider temp swing than the dashboard gauge indicates.


Funny you should say that because I have an in-dash Android carputer and a bluetooth OBD real-time scanner/transmitter in the car with the "Torque" app. Go figure - I'm a car nerd. I've got a virtual temp gauge that marks high-lows (over some unknown period of time) and I've monitored the temp (more to see the true temp because the analog meter only has dashes - no values). I'll pay more attention tomorrow, but from what I recall, it stays pretty tight even on the digital gauge, like +/- 5 degrees.

Peace.
Out.
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Simi Valley, California
Spider 1800
Romans 10:9

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So Cal Mark
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Re: Electric Water Pump

Postby So Cal Mark » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:43 am

I've run lots of OBDII cars with my scanner installed while doing drive cycles to reset emission monitors and the temps do stay very uniform. Most of them vary fan speed to keep the temperature in a very narrow range.
Mark Allison
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v6spider
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Re: Electric Water Pump

Postby v6spider » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:53 pm

Hotrod magazine did dyno tests comparing the difference in power between mechanical water pumps and electric ones..the tests were done in a small block chevy v8 but still will give you an idea of the horsepower gains..It would be awesome if you could do a similar test on a twin cam engine Mark.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1201-baseline-testing-do-water-pumps-suck-power/amp/

Cheers!
Rob

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nelsonj
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Re: Electric Water Pump

Postby nelsonj » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:35 pm

v6spider wrote:Hotrod magazine did dyno tests comparing the difference in power between mechanical water pumps and electric ones..,


So it looks like they got an extra 3.7 HP out of a 530 HP engine. Rough math, about a .7% increase in power. So if your FIAT is putting out 100HP, and we assume the same percentage benefits, your e-water pump would give you an extra 0.7HP. (About double my number from above, but you'd have to be really, really melded to your car to notice.)

Also, today I kept a very close eye on my virtual temp gauge (per above). It looks like the Corolla wants to run at 188 degrees. Even doing strange things (like putting it in a lower gear and turning on the A/C while going up a long hill) the temp never broke 191 and it never fell below 186. So it had more like a +/-3 degrees variance - modern cooling.

The e-pump should give better temp regulation, remove a spinning part, and (with a block off plate) remove some weight. All good things, but I still say the real reason to get one is for better engine temperature regulation (and I like the idea of it circulating water after the engine is off - you can't do that with a standard pump.)

Peace.
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RRoller123
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Re: Electric Water Pump

Postby RRoller123 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:14 am

Regardless of HP, I bet there would be a slight (emphasis on slight) acceleration improvement due to the inertial change and resistance losses being overcome by the pump vanes not spinning during every acceleration event.
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So Cal Mark
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Re: Electric Water Pump

Postby So Cal Mark » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:36 pm

actually they got 8hp improvement over a stock pump. The 3.7 increase was over an under-driven pump and as they stated, who knows how that would cool under driving conditions. BUT, my main reason for offering the pump is to cure the bleeding problems owners have at home and improve the cooling situation. It's one of the most common problems that owners have in my experience. If a small hp increase accompanies the installation, so much the better.
I will say the throttle response on this 2L engine is really good, but it's a combination of light flywheel, light crank pulley and no resistance from spinning a water pump with the belt.
Mark Allison
allisonsautomotive.com Fiat and Alfa Romeo parts and service. Performance parts our specialty!
Headers, ignitions, wheels, cams, flywheels
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pdx124
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Re: Electric Water Pump

Postby pdx124 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:04 am

I wonder if there would be any mpg increase from using an electric pump and a light flywheel/crank pulley setup since one would think there would be less drag and less mass the engine has to move around.

TX82FIAT
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Re: Electric Water Pump

Postby TX82FIAT » Wed May 03, 2017 11:28 am

Mark, this looks very cool. We all know that the Fiat spider water pump is an area that will fail in a cars lifetime. Can you put some more details out there with respect to installation? What size belt do you get for the alternator after install of new electric pump? How do you cut or remove the blades from the existing water pump housing? What circuit did you plug into and why? Does the temp sensor in the pump replace the fan switch at bottom of rad? How many amps does the water pump draw? Perhaps a diagrams of electrical and coolant flow along with a process would help some folks like me get off the fence on this one.

Really like the idea of losing the thermostat and having a more stable cooling system temperature controlled by both flow rate and fan.
Buon giro a tutti! - enjoy the ride!

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